Franz Liszt

[reith]

True that Liszt was a showman but who wouldn't be with his skills? Indeed some of the criticism of his early compositions being shallow probably arise from him having nothing that matched his abilities in the repertoire.

However, he did carry harmony a long way. I reckon he was the real runner with chromatic harmony, teaching Wagner into the bargain (Wagner's harmony changed arbuptly after he visited Liszt - between Die Meistersingern and Tristan).

[LethalBunny]

Originally Posted by reith

True that Liszt was a showman but who wouldn't be with his skills? Indeed some of the criticism of his early compositions being shallow probably arise from him having nothing that matched his abilities in the repertoire.

However, he did carry harmony a long way. I reckon he was the real runner with chromatic harmony, teaching Wagner into the bargain (Wagner's harmony changed arbuptly after he visited Liszt - between Die Meistersingern and Tristan).

hmm, well wagner also did have a crazy life change before he wrote tristan and isolde, I don't know if that would have contributed to it, he read some book about how every human is an animal and we're all screwed and only way to solve everything is through death and like it made him feel like he was just doomed lol and depressed him and made him feel like he was just a mistake, that the whole of the human race was almost kinda like a plague in a way. and he wrote tristen and isolde to express that I think. I don't know so much about it, just a little thing that I know =) and maybe he changed the way that he wrote because of that and not just because of listz, I don't know, just an idea =)

[Will Kirk]

Originally Posted by Peter Bolton

I don't believe pianists in those days had unusually large hands. Stretch is the result of constant practice, especially at a young age.

Umm who are we talking about here? Liszt had huge hands, his music states this as do personal accounts.

Stretch is the result of constant practice, especially at a young age.

Wrong, my uncle has never played a piano in his life and one time we measured to see how far he could stretch, he could comfortably reach a major 10th with ease. He could reach an 11th

You shouldn't generalise so easily, it's quite unwise

[LethalBunny]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

Umm who are we talking about here? Liszt had huge hands, his music states this as do personal accounts.

[quote/]Stretch is the result of constant practice, especially at a young age.

''Wrong, my uncle has never played a piano in his life and one time we measured to see how far he could stretch, he could comfortably reach a major 10th with ease. He could reach an 11th

You shouldn't generalise so easily, it's quite unwise''

well, you should also think about what you say before you say it as well =)
think, maybe your uncle had had practice at stretching his hands due to something else! =) I don't know, you know, there are more things to life than piano maybe he ended up being able to stretch so well because of something else other than piano. so, yeah, he would have learnt to stretch by practice just not via piano =)

and also maybe he just had big hands and like well with practice he would have been able to stretch more, who knows. but it is also unwise to just quote from your experience with your uncle and only him =) who knows, maybe your uncle has the most amazing hands in the universe lol

just keeping the justice.. =]

but yeah, I do understand what you really are trying to say, it's foolish to generalize things so quickly.

and yeah listz did have huge hands it's difficult to play his music I feel lucky to have okay sized hands, and quite a large stretch.

[reith]

It isn't just size of hands - it's an almost unearthly agility and endurance. Long fingers help in, e.g. his 5th Transcendental Study (Feux Follets), terrific agility and control helps in the 9th (Ricordanza).
Most people can stretch octaves but it isn't the fact that they're octaves (on around page 5 of the Sonata in B minor - can't think exactly where they are in the sheet music right now - I'll have a look in the morning), but the endurance you need to shake them out of your shoulders and arms as they cascade up and down the keyboard is another matter!
Liszt was a virtuoso, no doubt - hand size must help - but I think there's a lot more to it than that.

[LethalBunny]

hmm yeah I think maybe hand structure as well could come into play. For example there are songs that really are not naturally possible for the hand to play, you have to practice it over and over again until the muscles are physically in tone to be able to play it. For example the right hand to moonlight sonata the third movement (the fast one!) is insanely difficult to learn how to play properly simply because it is technically difficult. The fingers have to all be strong to make it sound right and you have to have a LOT of endurance to play it, I find that I get exhausted whilst playing that song for more than 3 minutes, physically exhausted because it's so intense.

[reith]

I convinced myself that "will" comes into this a lot - you have to will yourself to play what you can hear inwardly...and you need to analyse what your hands should be doing at full speed while you're learning/practicing the thing at slower speeds. A good example is the B minor arpeggio in the bass at the start of p2 of the B minor sonata.
Make no mistake, playing Liszt (and much Chopin) needs the whole of your anatomy.

Student performers laugh when they hear comments like "get your hips in shape for this" but for some pieces control starts from the hips to provide a decent yoke for the upper body, as in Chopins Prelude in C minor (No 20, I think) or the Moonlight (1st movement). The control needed for that kind of smooth pianissimo is surprising.

[LethalBunny]

Originally Posted by reith

I convinced myself that "will" comes into this a lot - you have to will yourself to play what you can hear inwardly...and you need to analyse what your hands should be doing at full speed while you're learning/practicing the thing at slower speeds. A good example is the B minor arpeggio in the bass at the start of p2 of the B minor sonata.
Make no mistake, playing Liszt (and much Chopin) needs the whole of your anatomy.

Student performers laugh when they hear comments like "get your hips in shape for this" but for some pieces you need to play with your hips at the right tension - like Chopins famous Prelude in C minor (No 20, I think). That takes a huge amount of control. Your trunk and legs have to provide the support as a yoke for your shoulders, arms and hands to act.

I totally agree with you on the will thing, really.
See thing with me is I started off piano as just like something to do. I wasn't really really into it but I liked it. I started off awful and over 4 years I can play stuff like clair de lune moonlight sonata, (learning fantasie impromptu slowly but surely) some of chopins nocturnes etc etc and the only reason why I have come so far so quickly is because I would DREAM of being able to play as well as that.

I remember the first time I heard moonlight sonata the third movement I was just amazed I wanted to be able to play it, I had only been learning piano for 2 years and just wanted to play it so badly. So I would just look in awe at the music and I even went round my school asking the best pianists if they could play it. They couldn't. In fact they laughed at me because I was only like grade 2 and was thinking about learning this Diploma level piece of music. Now I laugh at them. It took me a year to learn but I did it.

Now I'm learning liebestraum (the cadenzas are the insane bit) and fantasie impromptu, many pianists laugh at these pieces becuase they are just insane but well I know I'll get them eventually, just have to be patient and determined to succeed =)

Next I'm thinking about learning Hungarian Rhapsody =] Then all of Chopins Etudes. I have the music. I think I'll learn them in 10 years but it will be worth every second of my time put towards it =)

Where there's a will, there's a way
=)

[Peter Bolton]

My only generalisation was to pianists of that age as a whole. Liszt no doubt as you say had large hands but Fanny Mendelssohn did not and she was a wow at playing Beethoven by all acoounts. I think the point about flexibility was a very good one. Fanny's mother said that her prodigious child had 'Bach-fugue fingers', which certainly helps. I have read that Schubert had what are known as 'double-jointed' fingers. Whilst not especially renowned as a pianist, this accounts for the finger-twisters in his music.
I think my point about the value of finger exercise when young is a valid one. This was how Clara Wieck's father turned her into the brilliant pianist that she became.
If you want a line on the development of chromaticism, I will extend it further, thus:
J. S. Bach >> Fanny Mendelssohn >> Franz Liszt >> Richard Wagner

[LethalBunny]

Originally Posted by Peter Bolton

My only generalisation was to pianists of that age as a whole. Liszt no doubt as you say had large hands but Fanny Mendelssohn did not and she was a wow at playing Beethoven by all acoounts. I think the point about flexibility was a very good one. Fanny's mother said that her prodigious child had 'Bach-fugue fingers', which certainly helps. I have read that Schubert had what are known as 'double-jointed' fingers. Whilst not especially renowned as a pianist, this accounts for the finger-twisters in his music.
I think my point about the value of finger exercise when young is a valid one. This was how Clara Wieck's father turned her into the brilliant pianist that she became.
If you want a line on the development of chromaticism, I will extend it further, thus:
J. S. Bach >> Fanny Mendelssohn >> Franz Liszt >> Richard Wagner

hmm, didn't chopin use loads of chromaticism? surely he must have been an influence along the line? or are you just like making a history of the MAJOR changes in chromaticism? just asking =)