Piano Roll vs. Staff

[Amythe]

I've had this arguement with a friend of mine quite a number of times, and I would like to know your view on the subject. When composing on the computer, do you more prefer a piano roll, or a staff?

Personally, I like the staff more than the piano roll, but mostly because I guess I'm much more used to it.

[Thorolf]

For sequencing, piano roll, for score writing, staff (of course).

Regards

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Amythe

I've had this arguement with a friend of mine quite a number of times, and I would like to know your view on the subject. When composing on the computer, do you more prefer a piano roll, or a staff?

Personally, I like the staff more than the piano roll, but mostly because I guess I'm much more used to it.

Why are you arguing about what you prefer? If one of you is saying one is better, then that's an argument. But, it's a bad argument because none is better, just different.

Using Cubase, I use piano roll because it's notation interface sucks. Using Finale, I use notation because, well, it has no piano roll! But for entering Patch Changes, I use neither.

An argument like this is like arguing whether or not it's better to record in real time or use step entry. If I have to enter a hundred whole notes, I'm going to do it in step entry because I can do it in less than a minute. If I do that in real time at 100 BPM, it's going to take 4 minutes!

Which is better is not the point. Which is better in which situation might be the point.

And actually, I don't compose on the computer. I compose in my head, and then use paper, or a computer to preserve it, either as sound, or as notation.

Best,
Steve

[Amythe]

That seemed like a rather condescending and hostile post.

Arguing isn't the best word, more like playful debating, which I thought that message got through when I said "with my friend", but I guess not.

And it's that's the point of the thread, which do you prefer, because they ARE different. I didn't ask which was better, just which you like more. He uses a piano roll no matter what job it is, because it gives an extremely free style of writing exactly what you want, while I use notation because I can easily think about what I'm writing when I'm using notation, while piano roll takes a bit of thought.

Again, neither is better, but they are two different styles, and you didn't need to be so hostile.

[chckn8r]

I use mainly the piano roll.

Typically, I'll compose with piano sketch first - get all the harmonies and voicings the way I want.

If I want to edit any of the performance - i.e. any of the MIDI note information - I'll go into the piano roll to do it.

I only use the staff view if I'm "re-performing" the piece to other instruments (say an orchestra). I'll open multiple staves with the piano part at the top (but like Steve said, the notation aspects of DAWs usually suck big time) and perform each part separately (cutting and pasting is a pain in the butt and adding various control nuances is easier when playing in real time than using a mouse on an edit screen).

I then use the piano roll to edit any MIDI information that needs to be done.

There's not enough information about the MIDI data in a staff view - all you get is note on, note value and note off information. There's no velocity nor any continuous controller information that's present in the piano roll view.

Cheers, D

[stevel]

That seemed like a rather condescending and hostile post.

Sorry. Words don't always convey meaning in the same way live communication does. No Ill will is intended.

Arguing isn't the best word, more like playful debating, which I thought that message got through when I said "with my friend", but I guess not.

I argue with my friends so no, I don't think that's enough to qualify it. You're right, debating would probably have been better. Word choice is often important in discussions again because so much meaning can be lost without the interpersonal interaction.

And it's that's the point of the thread, which do you prefer, because they ARE different. I didn't ask which was better, just which you like more.

I like the one that works most efficiently in a given situation.

He uses a piano roll no matter what job it is, because it gives an extremely free style of writing exactly what you want,

Notation doesn't?

while I use notation because I can easily think about what I'm writing when I'm using notation, while piano roll takes a bit of thought

.

So...you don't want to think? I mean, coudn't using a different form of notation/recording give you different ways of approaching things. I guess what I'm asking here is, WHY you both choose the method you choose - do you both do it because it's "easier" or because it's "what you're used to"? If so, I'd say you are both shortchanging yourself.

Again, neither is better, but they are two different styles, and you didn't need to be so hostile.

I hate to tell you, this is the internet. That wasn't hostile at all. In fear of being hostile again, I'll make this comment anyway - don't be so thin-skinned.

I'm just arguing...err...debating with you :-)

Steve

[Ron Ofir]

I only ever user standard notation, but its most likely because I've never played a piano before. Then again, I don't compose that much this way (on a computer), I usually just play my guitar, and a tune pops out. After some more thought and expanding my idea, I notate it using Powertab, as it gives me much more control on bends, slides and the like. The good thing about this method is that I'm familiar with my guitar, and my hands just know what to do, so what comes out doesn't sound so... Feelingless?

[crimson]

Recently I've taken up composing with notation. I'm very poor at reading notation and I cannot imagine what the different notes sound without the aid of a computer, so I'm very reliant on my ears. But with notation I can get much better visual feedback about my score. I can see more of the music than by using piano roll.

I agree that the piano roll gives a lot more precision for making the MIDI sound what you want it to, but I have found general composition to be faster with notation for myself.

But for entering Patch Changes, I use neither.

May I ask how do you do the patch changes? I'd be very interested to know about another method as I've always struggled with patch changes on sound libraries when composing. It's rather annoying. If I use notation I'd have to mess up my score by adding keyswitch notes to it to trigger different articulations, and it's not easy using the piano roll to do it either.

[reith]

I hate to tell you, this is the internet. That wasn't hostile at all. In fear of being hostile again, I'll make this comment anyway - don't be so thin-skinned.

Well, these are just opinions/request for opinions and one has to allow for the somewhat imperfect medium of just typed messages - no other semiotic clues as to each others' meaning!

So let's all make allowances, please. Ta!

I have never used notation software but rely on a piano-roll sequencer except for a small trial using notepad. From that I learned that a sequencer is faster for me. Eg if I want to sustain a note I can set it exactly with the sequencer where it might take a bit of work in notation with ties / rests etc. If I want a rubato run - starting slow and speeding up or whatever - a sequencer can do it where notation would be difficult; using processed electronic or acoustic sounds is probably impossible.

I did have a race with my friend on Sibelius, me roughing a score to my satisfaction on paper. I beat him by miles.

But it's each to his own and depends on the style of music you write and how you like to work.

Where notation software wins hands down is if you want to rip parts or prepare a piece for publication.

[chckn8r]

I guess it comes down to - "it depends" - doesn't it?

Upon reading more of the threads, I have to admit that depending upon the situation, I'll use one more than the other.

If I'm composing AND performing the piece (i.e. using sampled orchestral libraries), I'll more often spend most of my time in the piano roll view.

If I'm composing and an ensemble is playing my piece, I'll use a combination of written (piano sketches) and computer aided notation (orchestral arranging) to capture and publish the piece. In this situation, I'll only use the DAW to get tempo and hit points correct and play the piano sketch in to capture the MIDI note information for Sibelius.

As for the thin-skinned thing. My advice would be to never read emotional intent into something on the internet - always assume the best intentions of the publisher and don't ever take anything personally.

Cheers, D