A little help

[Gazzura]

I'm close to finishing a 3-movement string orchestra piece (Well, I think I'm going to re-write the first movement) and I want to use a previously composed piece because, to me, it creates a contrast in the feel of the piece.

The piece I want to use is called Star In The East and, after a little research, I found that it was anonymously composed as a sacred hymn. The piece is this: http://wso.williams.edu/cpdl/sound/anon-sta.mid.

I also found that an American composer named William Walker used the tune. I wouldn't say he's a composer as such (maybe he is), but he worked with songs (he was a song leader) and shape notes. "Hail The Blest Morn (Star In The East)" is under his name, using the tune of Star In The East, but I'm guessing he added his own words.

Well, since I wanted to use the piece in my own work, I just wanted to know if it's plagiarism or not. Since one source claims an anonymous person composed it, but Walker also used it, I'm not very sure (by the way, Walker died in 1875.. I know about the 70 year rule, but still).

[chckn8r]

Originally Posted by Gazzura

Well, since I wanted to use the piece in my own work, I just wanted to know if it's plagiarism or not. Since one source claims an anonymous person composed it, but Walker also used it, I'm not very sure (by the way, Walker died in 1875.. I know about the 70 year rule, but still).

It sort of depends on how you're planning on crediting the piece and also how much of the original work you're using. If you're planning on using thematic or motif material and then re-harmonizing and re-arranging, then it's not really something to worry about if you credit it properly.

Using themes from other's works is done regularly - John Ottman used John Williams original themes in the Superman Returns film last year. He's credited as the composer, but there's a sub-credit stating that the original theme used was composed by John Williams.

I'd say that if you're planning on plunking down the piece with little or no modification on your part, then, yes, it'll be hard to argue that your not plagiarizing if you attach your name as the primary composer.

D

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Gazzura

Well, since I wanted to use the piece in my own work, I just wanted to know if it's plagiarism or not. Since one source claims an anonymous person composed it, but Walker also used it, I'm not very sure (by the way, Walker died in 1875.. I know about the 70 year rule, but still).

No, you want to know if it's copyright infringement. Plagiarism is using someone else's work without giving them credit. Copyright infringement is using another person's work that is under copyright protection. If you use another artist's work that is under copyright, it does not matter if you give them credit or not. If you do give them credit, it's copyright infringement. If you don't it's copyright infringement and plagiarism!

Your real question is, is this piece under copyright protection? 70 years - forget that - sometimes estates can renew copyrights after an author's death. Also, editions can be copyrighted, even if the original source is out of copyright. For example, if you wanted to make your own version of a Mozart Piano Sonata, but used an in copyright Alfred score to create it from, you'd be in violation (I knew a publisher who actually used original sources, but it just coincidentally happened that his version looked too similar to another publisher's (a major publisher of course) version - even though it wasn't intentional, it still violates).

Many people talk about Happy Birthday to You. The MUSIC for "Good Morning to You" (and those lyrics) are out of copyright. But the LYRICS for Happy Birthday to You, which are sung to the tune of Good Morning to You, are still under copyright protection. That's why you Olive Gardens and Red Lobsters are not supposed to be singing the "real" song and have to make up either new lyrics to the original melody, or sing a different song altogether.

Now, you can get permission from a copyright holder to use a work under copyright. You either pay a fee, or pay a licensing fee, or rarely, get it for free (it's interesting that since the copyright is author's life plus 75 years - who gets it for those extra years - always a company, rarely the family!).

As a side note, I can guarantee that the composer using John William's themes MUST have gotten permission, and probably payed heavily if anything recognizable is there. Film Music is slightly different than regular music as the production companies, not the composer (unless the composer is able to strike a good contract) holds the rights (which is why you always seem some notice about the soundtrack in the end credits. Star Wars is likely owned by 20th Century Fox, not John Williams. JW only gets money if his deal with 20th C allows him to. He would even have to pay a licensing fee to perform his works with a pop orchestra (though JW is well known enough that he's probably been able to work out some deals).

So you need to determine if this hymn is out of copyright (it likely is, especially since it's anonymous), AND you need to make sure the version you're using is out. Let's say, you grab a book off the shelf at the music store that has hymns in it, and they have this hymn, but they've edited it such that the first part is repeated, and the last part is made to cadence in the relative minor. If you use that version as the source for your material, and someone recognizes it, they can sue (or you could be forced to destroy the work, etc.)

Now, the next question is, who are you? Are you going to get this work (or any work you might write that contains potential copyrighted material) performed or recorded? If you compose it, and it sits in a drawer for 40 years, and then is discovered, or, is not discovered for 500 years, who's going to care. In other words, if I want to sit at home and write a Fugue on the theme from Indian Jones, I'm more than welcome to do so. But, if it goes out into the public, then you have problems - especially if you make money off of it, but even if you don't.

Now, there are also fair use clauses. Sampling has been seen as not fair use (because there's money involved in the recording industry). It is true that writing "variations on a theme by" or having quotations in music is commonplace and a respected practice. But it's not 1807, it's 2007. If you want to write variations on a theme by John Williams, Paul McCartney, or Joe Schmoe - it doesn't matter - if their work is under copyright, and you present it in public, then you're in trouble. Fair use covers educational uses and non-profit uses, and certain percentages of recognizable material (in other words, if Ice-Ice-baby had completely changed the lick with electronics so as not to sound identical to Queen/David Bowie's Under Pressure, there would have been no law suit. Which, by the way, Q/DB lost because Vanilla Ice's lawyers argued there was a grace note on one note and that made it different. They should have appealed because today that wouldn't happen. VI would have to get permission, and likely pay a percentage.

So I hope that helps. Just make sure where your sources are coming from, and if you feel like you need to get permission for something, try to do so, or, don't use it, or if you do, don't let anyone else hear it (which is kind of contrary to what we do!).

HTH,
Steve

[stevel]

Originally Posted by chckn8r

Using themes from other's works is done regularly - John Ottman used John Williams original themes in the Superman Returns film last year. He's credited as the composer, but there's a sub-credit stating that the original theme used was composed by John Williams.

D

Oh, on re-reading this:

The company owns the rights to the films, and the music in the films. John Williams may have no say in the matter (depending on his contract). John Ottman was hired by the company to write the music, and they told him to use William's themes, because, they own them (or he asked to use William's themes and they agreed). They probably only credited John Williams because of the flack they'd get if they didn't (unless Williams has it in a contract somewhere).

If a TV show uses a theme, they have to pay. For example, I saw a documentary where a documentary crew was filming at a pre-school, and the kids sang "I believe I can Fly". This documentary company had to either pay royalties, or cut the scene. It was not considered fair use (and of course the documentary filmmakers had neither the money to litigate, or the money to pay the royalties). First amendment didn't hold up 9though it should in this case). News shows can even get in trouble for doing something too long, or mentioning things - they have stringent guidelines on exactly how they can say "have a coke and a smile" on the air. It has to be in certain contexts. Unfortunately, for these film-makers, the context was that the record company of a song no one gives a crap about anymore wants to squeeze every last penny out of a product, fair or not.

Steve

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Gazzura

I'm close to finishing a 3-movement string orchestra piece (Well, I think I'm going to re-write the first movement) and I want to use a previously composed piece because, to me, it creates a contrast in the feel of the piece.

Here's another good copyright example - what's your Avatar? Is it a royalty-free image? Or did someone take a gif of a page from a still under copyright Dover Edition. If they did, it's infringement, and you could be responsible for damages (which powerful companies can just make up figures for if they want).

Is it fair use? Probably. But can you afford to litigate if someone even questions it?

One has to be careful in this day and age.

Best,
Steve

[Gazzura]

I've read, and understood, of all of the above. One thing I can say is that I've saved two versions of the movement: one with the tune and one without, just in case. Also, I got the tune of the shape note edition from a book in the 1800's named The Southern Harmony, which just now, I've found the official website of "The Southern Harmony, and Musical Companion" (the full title of the book).

In response to the first reply, I intended to use the whole tune instead of just a motif. But I was going to place credits, and say who composed it (since the original composer is anonymous, I might have to say William Walker's hymn as the credit). Since I've said this, where abouts would I credit, within the score or the front/back?

It's out of my nature to actually take another's work into my own and when I do, I normally keep it to myself without it seeing the light of day. All I'm really doing in relation to another person's music is that I've started to orchestrate my friend's piano piece, which he's fine with.

After searching, I've found a copyright, but a recording one. I'm not sure exactly how this means.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harm..._the_East.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harm..._East/520.html

The first link is to the page for Star In The East on the official website of the book, showing the page I looked at. The copyright is next to the mp3 link.

The second link, however, shows the full shape-note score of Star In The East, saying "Public Domain - Copy Freely". Maybe I'm getting my hopes up, but am I thinking that means it's under no copyright?

Also, I somehow hope for this piece will one day get recorded and also performed. I've enjoyed composing this piece and I reckon it has some good potential (I normally never am this egotistical!). Oh, and about Vanilla Ice's case, that was a good read. A recent music debate over Avril Lavigne's "Girlfriend" song (a band made a song named, "Boyfriend" and it sounds very similar in the chorus). Avril, I'm guessing, paid a musicologist to look at both pieces and sets the case saying that Avril's song is a different key signature and, I think, a different time signature. These music cases are quite amusing, haha.

For my avatar, it's three bars of one of my own pieces (a one-movement concerto grosso I composed for my A Level course). I was thinking of using a Brahms piece as an avatar. Luckily, I decided against that. Unfortunately, I Print-Screened the image from Sibelius and cropped it on MS Paint. If I could get into danger, I'd be happy to take it off.

If I missed any questions, I'll reply to them.

--
Gav.

[chckn8r]

Originally Posted by stevel

The company owns the rights to the films, and the music in the films. John Williams may have no say in the matter (depending on his contract). John Ottman was hired by the company to write the music, and they told him to use William's themes, because, they own them (or he asked to use William's themes and they agreed). They probably only credited John Williams because of the flack they'd get if they didn't (unless Williams has it in a contract somewhere).

For the majority of the films out there, you're probably right above, and it's hard to know the details of the agreements (unless we get a peak into the contract), but for the past decade or so, unless the works have been done "for hire", composers and music licensing houses have typically kept all or at least writers and publishing rights to the music they write / own and give film company perpetual worldwide license to use the music in conjunction with the film and associated advertising.

Best, D

[stevel]

But I was going to place credits, and say who composed it (since the original composer is anonymous, I might have to say William Walker's hymn as the credit). Since I've said this, where abouts would I credit, within the score or the front/back?

If the tune is anonymous and not under copyright, you don't have to say Jack. If it makes up a significant portion of the piece however, I'd put is under the title:

I: Daybreak
based on hymn 41 from xxxx

or if your work is merely an arrangement, you could put "Arranged by" where your name is put.

I wouldn't say "william walkers" hymn unless that's a colloquial name for it, like "The Old One-Hundredth". Otherwise you're only making reference to it's occurrence in a more, or somewhat more popular version, which is sure to draw attention to it.
It's out of my nature to actually take another's work into my own and when I do, I normally keep it to myself without it seeing the light of day. All I'm really doing in relation to another person's music is that I've started to orchestrate my friend's piano piece, which he's fine with.

Otherwise, you can simply put a performance note on the inside cover of the score.

After searching, I've found a copyright, but a recording one. I'm not sure exactly how this means.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harm..._the_East.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harm..._East/520.html

The first link is to the page for Star In The East on the official website of the book, showing the page I looked at. The copyright is next to the mp3 link.

The second link, however, shows the full shape-note score of Star In The East, saying "Public Domain - Copy Freely". Maybe I'm getting my hopes up, but am I thinking that means it's under no copyright?

Public Domain means no copyright. Those recordings are copyrighted. You couldn't play them at a public event without a license or without paying a fee/getting permission.

For my avatar, it's three bars of one of my own pieces (a one-movement concerto grosso I composed for my A Level course). I was thinking of using a Brahms piece as an avatar. Luckily, I decided against that. Unfortunately, I Print-Screened the image from Sibelius and cropped it on MS Paint. If I could get into danger, I'd be happy to take it off.

If it's your piece, and you made the gif, it's yours - you own it. The only danger is, of course, having someone else be able to copy and use it without YOUR permission! :-)

Best,
Steve

[stevel]

After searching, I've found a copyright, but a recording one. I'm not sure exactly how this means.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harm..._the_East.html
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/walker/harm..._East/520.html

The first link is to the page for Star In The East on the official website of the book, showing the page I looked at. The copyright is next to the mp3 link.

The second link, however, shows the full shape-note score of Star In The East, saying "Public Domain - Copy Freely". Maybe I'm getting my hopes up, but am I thinking that means it's under no copyright?

Looking at some of the other pages on this site:

The print source for this is from Promusicamericana (or whatever) from 1966 edition. It's under copyright.

HOWEVER, that publisher may have given permission for that entire edition, or portions of the edition (or the original author could have even decreed that their work should remain in public domain in perpetuity) to be available as public domain.

So interestingly, Joe Publisher could pick up this piece, and make an arrangement of it. Their arrangement would be under copyright, but not the tune or the text. But as a "reprint", it is public domain because they've not made significant artistic contribution to it.

You're in pretty good shape (pun intended) with this.

But I'm no lawyer, I just play one on the internet.

That'll be $5,000,000,000,000,000,000 please.

:-)

Steve

[Gazzura]

Originally Posted by stevel

Looking at some of the other pages on this site:

The print source for this is from Promusicamericana (or whatever) from 1966 edition. It's under copyright.

HOWEVER, that publisher may have given permission for that entire edition, or portions of the edition (or the original author could have even decreed that their work should remain in public domain in perpetuity) to be available as public domain.

So interestingly, Joe Publisher could pick up this piece, and make an arrangement of it. Their arrangement would be under copyright, but not the tune or the text. But as a "reprint", it is public domain because they've not made significant artistic contribution to it.

You're in pretty good shape (pun intended) with this.

But I'm no lawyer, I just play one on the internet.

That'll be $5,000,000,000,000,000,000 please.

:-)

Steve

If only I had the money! Heh, I did a law A level course, I should be the lawyer.. But, I studied criminal law, not contract law.

So, in short, I can use the tune on the sheet given as a "public domain" item. I don't know of an arrangement of that tune, so it's all good.

Also, that would mean everything in my third movement (where the tune is put in) is under copyright to me (if it ever gets to that), except for that tune itself. If so, that's fine.

So that being settled, I can carry on with composing the piece after that tune being played.

Also, about my avatar, I didn't think about someone copying it. I might as well change it when I can be bothered.