Tone Poems?

[high_school_bassoonist]

Already two movements in, I would like to ask, although late, how to go about writing a tone poem, what it consists of, and What the purpose is. My understanding is that it is generally something that tries to tell a story, through 3 movements of music (e.g. William Tell Overture by Rossini, which is not actually an overture, but rather a tone poem in itself). so Far im telling the Story of A sea battle, first introducing the pirates with a mysterious piece in A minor, and then migrating to Introducing The English Navy, with a merry jig, including little musical gestures , such as "the Captain is on deck" and a Call and answer between the Sailors and the Captain. (the third movement will call for a ranged battle, followed by sword-fighting , and then , the defeat of the pirates)

What i really want to know, is there any more Strict format that one must follow, like in a rhondo, or a minuet. or is it a more open style. Thanx crew!.

[reith]

Originally Posted by high_school_bassoonist

What i really want to know, is there any more Strict format that one must follow, like in a rhondo, or a minuet. or is it a more open style. Thanx crew!.

Strict? Not at all - it's the one genre you can be free of form in the traditional sense. Its length and thematic material will probably dictate a structure - it's as well to have some kind of structure even if through-composed. Think more about proportion and balance between the various sections.
If including a climax you need to consider where to put it. For example, if within the piece, don't reach it too early (just as a guidline, think around 2/3 of the way through, so you have time to wind down) - then again, it may be in the closing bars.

Nope, tone poems have no formal structural rules. Isn't that nice?

[high_school_bassoonist]

thats fantastic, and dont worry, the climax comes in the third movement anyway. so i think i should be ok.

[Ballaw de Quincewold]

Tone-poems have no rules or form at all. Their progression depends entirely on the composers interpretation of his selected programmatic idea. That Liszt was a cool guy wouldn't you say?

[Boneman]

Loadsa tone poems in the brass band world Ms Bassoon!

[stevel]

Originally Posted by high_school_bassoonist

Already two movements in, I would like to ask, although late, how to go about writing a tone poem, what it consists of, and What the purpose is.

What i really want to know, is there any more Strict format that one must follow, like in a rhondo, or a minuet. or is it a more open style. Thanx crew!.

Ok, a little advice - think about this before you start :-)

Tone Poems are a Romantic period contraption, the height of which are probably Richard Strauss' Thus Spake Zarathustra (you've heard the opening I'm sure), Til Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks, Don Quixote, etc.

Basically, they grow out of the idea of a "Program" Symphony. A Program is a "story" (or mood, etc.) that a piece conveys. Vivaldi's Four Seasons and Beethoven's 6th Symphony are good pre-Romantic period versions. But we really see it start with Berlioz' Symphony Fantastique. This is a 5 movement "symphony" that tells a story complete with themes for characters (called idee fixe). But from there the distinction between "symphony" and multi-movement orchestral piece becomes blurred. Berlioz also wrote Harold in Italy, which for all intents and purposes is a Viola Concerto, but, since it's got the story line, we think of it more as a Tone Poem (or a "program concerto" if we want to get technical).

Liszt and Strauss, among others followed this path (while composers like Brahms stuck more to the traditional Symphony form). The Romantic Overture, or Orchestral Overture is another "tone poem" type form - William Tell as you mention, and Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet - they're "overtures" to "nothing".

So one of the basic ideas that spread throughout all froms in the Romantic period was this idea of "program" music, or music associated with some other art form - Art, and a museum visit in Pictures at an Exhibition, Literature in the Resurrection of Christ in Death and Transfiguration, etc.

So the form is VERY open. Most typically, a Tone Poem is an orchestral piece, and it's either one large movement, or multi-movement. Strauss' Zarathustra has movements that are more like "chapters". Smetena carried the whole thing to extremes and not only made movements tell a story, but he made a series of symphonies/tone poems all tell part of a story in scenes from my life. Think of The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (or Star Wars, etc.)

Usually the movements, if any, can follow any form, from tradition to unique.

Can I make another suggestion though HSB. I see this a lot with beginning composers. They haven't listened to a lot of material, and then hear about something, then decide they want to write one. It's like watching the Olympics, seeing a couple of events, and then deciding you want to do the Triathalon. You can't just go next week and try out for the Olympics. You have to actually become involved in the sports and learn all of the skills and techniques etc. Same is true of music - it would help if people took a little time to immerse themselves in the style - if you're going to write "classical" type music, then you ought to listen to and study a lot of classical type music. Otherwise you're just filling up the airwaves with more "quasi-classical" rip off music.

Now, that said, I don't mean you can't write music for fun, for yourself, or whatever. But if you're going to write a Tone Poem, a Fugue, or whatever (and call them those), then it's probably a good idea to do a little research first.

But now that you've already gotten into it, good luck on finishing the rest. Post it when you're done (you can always test to see if people get the story :-)

Have fun,
Steve

[high_school_bassoonist]

first off wow. Thanx for taking the time out to write such an extensive response Steve.. it means alot to me. I guess i shouldn't have really used the terminology of "Tone Poem". These compositions are still more art than music, as you have stated. that the idea is to conjure up music that tells a story, whereas i feel my piece is more conjuring up a few scenes that relate to each other, and indeed do link up , to tell a KIND of story, but its far more vague than having characters etc. I was unsure of the form that i was writing, and as such i jumped ahead of myself and called it a tone poem, not really knowing what it was, but someone had said that it was like a tone poem when they heard it.

Tone Poems are a Romantic period contraption, the height of which are probably Richard Strauss' Thus Spake Zarathustra (you've heard the opening I'm sure), Til Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks, Don Quixote, etc.

Well luckily for me, i tend to write mostly in a romantic period style , so im ok there. but i, unfortunately go to a high school where Jazz rules and my teachers do not have the foggiest of what classical music is, and have no way to help me, (they're about as useful as a one legged man in an ass kicking competition T_T). in addition, i do not know of any composition teachers at the moment, nor do i have the appropriate funds right now to include one into my employ. But rest assured when my funds do come back into fruition , i shall hunt down and capture one of these exotic and strange creatures.

Thanx again, im looking forward to posting it soon.

[stevel]

Originally Posted by high_school_bassoonist

Well luckily for me, i tend to write mostly in a romantic period style , so im ok there. but i, unfortunately go to a high school where Jazz rules and my teachers do not have the foggiest of what classical music is, and have no way to help me, (they're about as useful as a one legged man in an ass kicking competition T_T). in addition, i do not know of any composition teachers at the moment, nor do i have the appropriate funds right now to include one into my employ. But rest assured when my funds do come back into fruition , i shall hunt down and capture one of these exotic and strange creatures.

Well, I don't mean to be nit-picky about the term either. If it's not a "tone poem" per se, we can simply call it Program music. Just FYI, there was a big argument between composers in the Romantic period. Brahms advocated what was termed "Absolute" music - music for music's sake. Wagner was seen as the opposite and advocated music that incorporated other art forms (and in Wagner's case, ALL art forms) which is called "program" music.

It's actually kind of a silly argument. Vivaldi's Four Seasons is programmatic. But much of his other music is absolute. Beethoven wrote some programmatic music, like the 6th Symphony, Rage over a Lost Penny, "happy and sad", etc. (we have to watch out though - the "program" craze was so ever present in the Romantic period that editors went back and assigned programmatic titles to works that weren't originally intended as being programmatic, such as Chopin's "Raindrop" prelude). Even Bach, who Brahms would have considered the epitome of Absolute music, wrote programmatic pieces such as "Cuckoo" or "Hen" pieces. Even Leopold Mozart's Toy Symphony (which many other people also wrote similar pieces) could be considered programmatic.

Pragram music usually "tells a story". It doesn't necessarily have to be a narrative, but the story or "events" could just be musically portrayed. It also ranges from musical portrayal to simply "being inspired by" in some definitions. Including real world sounds such a bird calls might be considered programmatic by some, where others might prefer a more strict definition where that particular bird, or a "scene" with birds is being portrayed. In any case, your piece is certainly programmatic the way you've described it. You don't have to call it a Tone Poem specifically, and in fact you might want to avoid it because it has so much baggage associated with the term.

I think I looked and saw you were in Australia right? Do you have a University nearby? What about some local piano or guitar teachers? Some college professors will give composition lessons if you show promise (by the way, I listened to your Piano Piece (untitled - BTW, if I can't think of a title sometimes I just call it the date it was completed, like 01.01.07 - but you probably use that "backwards" date system :-) and you do show promise. You could really benefit from composition lessons with a good teacher (i.e. one that helps you explore your own creativity, rather than trying to impose thier values on you). If not, a lot of Universities are involved in programs with High Schools (Arts or "Magnet" schools, etc.)

Otherwise, a lot of Piano teachers have studied at college, and you might even find one with some composition background or even a degree in comp. Guitarists are sometimes similar but you'll find a lot who play be ear and are not accredited. Additionally, you might be able to find other instrumentalists who have studied or have a degree in composition. In other words, call a violin teacher and tell them you're looking for a composition instructor. If they do it themselves, they might offer, and if not, they might be able to point you to someone who does. Do you have a private Bassoon teacher? If so, ask them. Do you have local Symphonies (Adelaide is big like Melbourne, right? forgive me for my ignorance of your country) or other ensembles? You might even find vocalists in choirs or even in your local church choirs who have some composition experience.

The point is, meet as many musicians as you can. The arts are so underfunded that we all have to stick together. Musicians (except for divas) are usually willing to help out other musicians. The more people you know, the more you can get your name around. It will also help you get performances of your works (especially if you can do it while you're still young when people are amazed by your skill!). So there are a lot of possibilities for findind an instructor - you'll just need to dig a little. Oh, and there's a lot to be learned from Jazz too, so don't totally discount it - just absorb it like other influences and use it when you need to.

Best,
Steve

[high_school_bassoonist]

Originally Posted by stevel

I(by the way, I listened to your Piano Piece (untitled - BTW, if I can't think of a title sometimes I just call it the date it was completed, like 01.01.07 - but you probably use that "backwards" date system :-) and you do show promise.

Unfortunately Steve, you have gotten confused, as i did not write that piece, but yes, i know that in fact
MaestroX vbmenu_register("postmenu_2973", true);
Administrator
Music Virtuoso

wrote it. and he deserves a round of applause because i think he did a wonderful job. However steve, i do not show the kind of talent , nor skill that this man does... not to mention that i dont play the piano. but thanks for trying to help. i apologise for any confusion.

Kind regards , Matt

[stevel]

Originally Posted by high_school_bassoonist

Unfortunately Steve, you have gotten confused, as i did not write that piece, but yes, i know that in fact
MaestroX vbmenu_register("postmenu_2973", true);
Administrator
Music Virtuoso

wrote it. and he deserves a round of applause because i think he did a wonderful job. However steve, i do not show the kind of talent , nor skill that this man does... not to mention that i dont play the piano. but thanks for trying to help. i apologise for any confusion.

Kind regards , Matt

Oops. Sorry Maestro - for you good job. For Matt, thanks for correcting me. I think I was looking at too many things at once! But Matt, my advice still stands - if your writing programmatic like music, and interested in becoming better at it, those options I mentioned for pursuing an instructor are still worth checking out.

Best,
Steve