Some Questions

[Will Kirk]

Hey Everyone

Well I have a few questions regarding writing for a large ensemble (full woodwind and strings) and/or Symphony

Question 1: Is it a bad thing to have separate instruments playing in octaves with one another? For instance if I had my flute section playing an octave higher than my 1st violin section for the duration of the melody. Would that be considered bad harmony?

Question 2: When writing a slow movement, what is the usual maximum amount of time that a woodwind player can hold a single note? (I realize that that may vary from instrument to instrument, but any help would be appreciated)

Question 3: When writing a concerto, (violin and orchestra, or guitar and orchestra) Is there a surefire way to be sure that the solo instrument will be heard above the orchestra?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[MaestroX]

Question 1: Is it a bad thing to have separate instruments playing in octaves with one another? For instance if I had my flute section playing an octave higher than my 1st violin section for the duration of the melody. Would that be considered bad harmony?

Not necessarily no. If you are thinking conventionaly (common practice period) then I can think of many example of when Mozart has done this, the first one that pops into my head is his symphony no.17 in F, first movement. Upon repeating a phrase he often doubles the violin I with the flute.

Question 2: When writing a slow movement, what is the usual maximum amount of time that a woodwind player can hold a single note? (I realize that that may vary from instrument to instrument, but any help would be appreciated)

Depends on what the tempo is . But usually I would say 12-16 beats of an adagio. If you had more than one player for the part then each could swap creating a seamless note effect. This can be seen in practice in some of the choral music of Arvo Pärt

Question 3: When writing a concerto, (violin and orchestra, or guitar and orchestra) Is there a surefire way to be sure that the solo instrument will be heard above the orchestra?

There are two factors in this. The loadness of both the solo and the orchestra, and also the amount of instruments playing in the orchestra. Usually though when a concerto is performed the solost is placed in front of the orchestra so the sound carries easier than it would if playing from within the orchestra.

[ttw]

Balance is difficult to achieve. You may wish to look at some scores of famous concertos or operatic arias. In a concerto, the solo instrument may be able to project by articulation or register or tone color over an orchestra. However, there are limits. A piano can generally generate enough volume to hold its own. A harp could not.

Other instruments have problems. A harpsichord cannot be heard over a normal string quartet (modern strings.)

One thing that helps is to thin the orchestral texture in places featuring the solo instruments.

[Will Kirk]

Originally Posted by MaestroX

Depends on what the tempo is . But usually I would say 12-16 beats of an adagio. If you had more than one player for the part then each could swap creating a seamless note effect. This can be seen in practice in some of the choral music of Arvo Pärt

The tempo I was wondering about is about 60 notes a minute in that case

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

Hey Everyone

Well I have a few questions regarding writing for a large ensemble (full woodwind and strings) and/or Symphony

Question 1: Is it a bad thing to have separate instruments playing in octaves with one another? For instance if I had my flute section playing an octave higher than my 1st violin section for the duration of the melody. Would that be considered bad harmony?

[Steve] Well - it's not really harmony, since they're in octaves :-).
It's not uncommon, but it might get a little annoying after a while.


Question 2: When writing a slow movement, what is the usual maximum amount of time that a woodwind player can hold a single note? (I realize that that may vary from instrument to instrument, but any help would be appreciated)

[Steve] Question - a single player? Usually you can give a long note to a pair and they can stagger their breathing if necessary.


Question 3: When writing a concerto, (violin and orchestra, or guitar and orchestra) Is there a surefire way to be sure that the solo instrument will be heard above the orchestra?

[Steve] If it's guitar, the best way is to write "Tacet" in the orchestral parts! Seriously though, you should score lightly during solo sections. It helps of course to know the instrument itself - for instance, you would have to score differently for a flute playing solo in it's lowest octave than for it playing in higher registers. You know, as a Guitarist, I don't even think there should be Guitar Concerti. You never hear one where the guitar is not amplified. They're simply not loud enough. Even with a Classical period size orchestra. Even in a guitar 4tet (string 4tet with Guitar as 1 violin) the guitar still can't compete. Not that there's not plenty of music for all kinds of cobinations, but I just don't think that any of them are as effective as other orchestral instrument combinations and orchestra. It's not a piano!

Guitar works well with solo voice, flute to a degree, recorder to a degree. Guitar and Harp would be OK, but then you've got two really similar timbres. Other instrumentalists can play quietly enough if they maintain restraint, but it's so easy to cover up the Guitar. But that's why Leo Fender came along :-).

Best,
Steve

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Hey, how do you guys do those "inline" quotes?

Steve

[reith]

Will, d'you mind me adding my tuppenceworth?

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

Question 1: Is it a bad thing to have separate instruments playing in octaves with one another? For instance if I had my flute section playing an octave higher than my 1st violin section for the duration of the melody. Would that be considered bad harmony?

Not at all. You can "double" a part for several reasons:
i) to get a timbral variation
ii) for a novel effect
iii) to reinforce the sound.

You can also double at the unison to get a sound varying from the rich to the bizarre! Horns and clarinets at unison make a nice doubling. Clarinets doubled at the octave by the flute goes well. Oboe and bassoon are ok. There are many possible unison / octave / two-octave doublings... It's a question of what blends and not. Clarinets blend with anything.

With a full symphony orchestra playing loud tutti, the brass swamp everything - so all the important notes in the harmony should be in the brass and the rest double the brass at unison or octaves in their best register* to add to the loudness! In full ff brass, remember that 2 horns = 1 trumpet or trombone in volume (as a guide, anyway).

*woodwind instruments (except the clarinet) are not uniform in volume throughout their compass: the flute is weak in its lowest 5th getting louder toward the C above the stave, then full blast!
The oboe's bottom Bb, B, C, C# are raucous and almost impossible to play quietly - the melodic part goes from about D to C above the stave. After that, the notes weaken.

So when you double brass (or even strings) in a loud tutti, keep the flutes high, the oboes low to medium, the clarinets anywhere, the bassoons low.

You would normally double a melody until it came to some sort of logical end or cadence...you don't have to but it might sound as if someone just stopped playing! As usual there are exceptions!

As others have said, score study is the way.

Question 2: When writing a slow movement, what is the usual maximum amount of time that a woodwind player can hold a single note? (I realize that that may vary from instrument to instrument, but any help would be appreciated)

See if you can get a score of Beethoven's 9th! IMO Beethoven is an excellent source of w/w study.

He is rather cruel with his oboes, though. It's a VERY tiring instrument. Playing needs little breath so composers think they can write pages and pages without rests. Not so. Oboists' lungs still function normally and, as when you hold your breath for a very long time, you start to go dizzy. Oboists rarely empty their lungs to play a phrase so when they do grab a breath, they exhale what air is left first then inhale fully.
Flutes also need lots of air and they run the risk of hyperventilation!

I can't speak for clarinettists/bassoonists so perhaps members who play these would care to comment?

You should avoid excessively long legato passages but players will take breaths if they have to. As said earlier up the thread, if you have two players playing a single sustained note, they can swap (with a small overlap).

Question 3: When writing a concerto, (violin and orchestra, or guitar and orchestra) Is there a surefire way to be sure that the solo instrument will be heard above the orchestra?

You have this problem whenever you want to highlight a "solo" among the orchestral players anyway. You arrange things so that the soloist can be heard - that usually means thinning the texture and keeping the volume down. With treble instruments you can place them highest in the harmony. Treat what's happening behind the soloist as an accompaniment, keeping it musically simpler as well. With guitar you have to keep the accompaniment very quiet, I'd guess.

Hope these are some help!

[MaestroX]

Hey, how do you guys do those "inline" quotes?

Simple, just copy and paste the text you want into quote tags

[quote]your quote here[/quote]

You can use this button in the editor to automatically add quote tags round highlighted text:

I can't speak for clarinettists/bassoonists so perhaps members who play these would care to comment? :-)

Hyperventilation can occur on the clarinet but rarely, and we don't surcome to dizziness. Also you mention earlier:

woodwind instruments (except the clarinet) are not uniform in volume throughout their compass

Which is not entirly true. In our upper octave is almost impossible to play without at least being mf .

[Will Kirk]

Originally Posted by stevel

Hey, how do you guys do those "inline" quotes?

Steve

Well actually Steve, Joaqin Rodrigo wrote quite a few guitar and orchestra pieces long before Leo Fender came along

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Will Kirk

Well actually Steve, Joaqin Rodrigo wrote quite a few guitar and orchestra pieces long before Leo Fender came along

Yes I know, and the guitar still needs to be amplified to be heard :-).

Steve

[stevel]

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Steve