The Duration of a Piece.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by reith

thinking 'oh Christ! Let me pass please so I can get to the bar first!'

Well, a work around would be to open the bar before you start. The only thing you have to worry then id people needing to go to the bathroom.....

;-)

[Boneman]

Much as some people here have a real talent for composition,some of us (me more than anyone)do not have the talent of Beethoven etc to hold an audience.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Boneman

Much as some people here have a real talent for composition,some of us (me more than anyone)do not have the talent of Beethoven etc to hold an audience.

Boneman, same applies to many writers, filmmakers, painters, you name it.
Real question is; what's the purpose of your music?
- entertaining audience?
- expressing your personal feelings?
- see what's possible in the organisation of sounds?
- produce a bunch of notes that will last 3, 5, 60 minutes?
- produce practice materials for yourself and/or your/a band/group/ensemble?
To honestly answer this one will also give you insight of the "needs" for your music (not all music has to entertain.. if you write off your own feelings for yourself, who cares if no one likes it?). The first one will have the NEED to entertain / engage the audience; it it's purpose.

[Boneman]

I have written stuff that goews from 3 to 15 minutes and you can put money on the three minute stuff for audience!

[Peter Bolton]

As has been expressed, writing short pieces and long works are two different skills and short effective numbers are by no means the easy option. However, the big advantage of a longer time duration is that their is scope for building up big climaxes and holding the listener in suspense for long periods. I don't see Hollywood producing any five minute blockbusters. Incidentally, sonata form is an ideal story structure and that is why it survives, even today.
The idea that our attention spans are growing shorter is a depressing one - is this the result of all the dumbing down that the media inflicts on us? Are we really growing more and more stupid? I can't believer this is really so.
My favourite piece of the moment lasts just 1min 19secs and boy does it pack some punch! but then I also love listening to Medtner's 1st piano concerto, a 32min single movement.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by Peter Bolton

The idea that our attention spans are growing shorter is a depressing one - is this the result of all the dumbing down that the media inflicts on us? Are we really growing more and more stupid? I can't believer this is really so.

Peter, undoubtably the media does lots of dumbing down, but only because they have to assume that they want to reach the stupid ones too (lot's and lot's of them around, so big profits are awaiting....), but.... in the end it's one's own choice to accept this trend and/or adapt to it.
I see more and more parents not taking the time to properly learn their kids some basics like concentrating on a single task (like reading) and developing an eye for the less obvious things around you. Well, if you bring up your kids like that they are bound to grow up into adults with childish attention-spans.
There is only one thing to do; lead everyone around you by example, and help them develop any missing / undeveloped capabilities....

and teach them to understand and appreciate finesses in music.

Lot's of work but always worth it !

In the mean time perhaps the composer can explain the audience what they are awaiting... so that they may take the time to listen and enjoy?

[stevel]

I strongly believe that music need a "storyline". This can be a series of emotions you felt and want to convey via the music, or an actual story (Peter and the wolf..), or a dance, or.. well you get it I hope.

I agree 100%. I would say, we should just be clear that a "storyline" doesn't have to be a narrative story per se, and that that alone does not guarantee a cohesive and successful work. I would say, like a good work of literature, there are many levels on which good pieces operate - focus on a particular level cna provide a point of interest, but doing so to the exclusion of all else usually results in simply "academic" pieces.

This brings me to the question why people get bored. I think this is because they:
- cannot understand the "story" you're telling (it's too complicated for your audience), or
- think it's not a normal progression of feelings (people who feel the same way you want to express in the music would not think that way and like it vey much), or
- think it's more of the same thing; if you over-explain things you "insult" the mind of the listener, or
- are used to very strong impressions and tend to be bored with more subtile ones (typically people that want to ride more and more dangerous roller coasters), or

I think all of these are true. I think the most difficult thing for us is that we tend to create things WE understand, and we generally expect others to understand it as well - and they typically don't. That's what I meant by the public's short attention span. You have to make a decision as an artist whether you're going to try to appeal to the least common denominator, or only a "select" few (usually of the composer's same mindset). One of the reasons I think Beethoven was so successful is that his music works on those multiple levels I was mentioning above - there's something in it for everyone so-to-speak.

-
A good storyteller knows these pitfalls and works around it. A good composer does that too and can keep them hooked on the music?

What do you think?

I think it's important that a musical work - not being a literary or other artistic work - lets the listener know what to expect pretty quickly. A Painting could be layered with symbolism, but the artist needs to get you the basic image on first glance - once they've got your attention, you can begin to look at the finer details. Music is a bit harder because it exists in time, and you have to expeirience it in real time. This means, once you get the attention, you have to keep it - because since it's in time it's like looking through a photo album - by the time you see one picture, you're on to the next. The challenge I think is to get the listener to understand that all of the images are related in some way, and that they can mentally "flip back" to find these deeper connections. I think one of the problems with a lot of ineffective music is that it's simply a bunch of images thrown together with no real relation (no "story") - and people try to justify it by saying "the fact that there's no relation IS the relation". That's a cop out to me.

So as composers, we have a tougher job of holding attention, while also trying to get our "story" across, because it all unfolds in time. And unlike a film (which does the same thing), we don't usually have the advantage of visual and mental (language) media - it's aural only.

We should also note that, delivery comes into play too - a mediocre speech can really hit home when spoken by a captivating orator, so composers owe their performers a debt of gratitude in this regard. However, the "story" has to also be clear to the performers, or they themselves will not be able to convey it to an audience.

Steve

[reith]

Originally Posted by Peter Bolton

I don't see Hollywood producing any five minute blockbusters. Incidentally, sonata form is an ideal story structure and that is why it survives, even today.

Well, movie music is something aside. The blockbuster chunks are usually the title piece on which the rest might draw and they're just a few minutes. I've heard a few sountracks throughout (deliberately dimmed the dialogue because I thought I liked parts of it) and really, yes, it develops but it rarely has the dynamic to hold someone's attention for 90 minutes.

The idea that our attention spans are growing shorter is a depressing one - is this the result of all the dumbing down that the media inflicts on us?

Reckon so. The media, the government's jobsworth scheme and "marketing" via the media have taken away people's need to think for themselves, to do things...like sewing on a button or fitting an electric plug...one can even buy ready-roast-spuds now.... people are not expected to do these nowadays. You need an egg-spurt for such tasks. Sad. If you can't get it by slapping a piece of plastic on a counter, forget it!
But I don't want to sound cynical...

cheers
reith.

[Peter Bolton]

I suppose we have to accept that the wider audience requires short pieces of music, which seem nowadays to be called songs, no matter what. Mendelssohn would have loved that! Those with more brainpower can and should exercise it and there are far more of us around than there were in Beethoven's day. So there is an audience and no need to be downhearted if it takes half an hour to build up the climaxes you want in your compositions.
Neither of my sons has come into the classical fold, as yet. Nevertheless, the lengthy storytimes we had in the evenings have paid off - they are at least both avid readers.

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Peter Bolton

I suppose we have to accept that the wider audience requires short pieces of music, which seem nowadays to be called songs, no matter what. Mendelssohn would have loved that! Those with more brainpower can and should exercise it and there are far more of us around than there were in Beethoven's day. So there is an audience and no need to be downhearted if it takes half an hour to build up the climaxes you want in your compositions.

I think you have to be careful here Peter - people work under the assumption that all citizens of Vienna were all packing in to see Mozart's lastest piece. Nothing could be farther from the truth. "Art" music has always been the domain of people who separate themselves from the "general public" (I don't mean that we're better than them, although in Mozart's day there was obviously a caste society). Even in early music, Sacred music was really the domain of the Church. Outside of Rome, at the coronotion, probably not too many people heard Palestrina's work. In the Romantic period, the rising middle class allows for the development of a "middle" art - Salon Music.

And while there are more of "us" around than in Beethoven's day, there are more of other people too including people from distinct cultures who don't even listen to Western Classical music. That's another part of my initial argument that it's even harder now to keep people's attention. Not only are we competing against Green Day, but we're competing against Mozart and Beethoven! Those that do have the brainpower to sit through Mahler have apparently been "brainwashed" so that sitting through Stockhausen is horror for them. So you're not only fighting attention spans, but the prejudices that accompany "modern" "classical" music.

By the way, I call songs songs, pop or classical, but pieces of "classical" music "works" or "pieces". But yes, you're right - there is an audience for "works" rather than "songs" - you've just got to find them. It helps if you can get, and keep their attention span though, and not bore them to death :-)

Best,
Steve