Making a great orchestra recording

[andreasvanharen]

How can I make a great realistic sound orchestra recording of my sibelius/midi file? i tried it so many times but it always sounds fake. Anyone know how to do this?

André

[reith]

I'm in two minds about this. Real orchestras and sampled ones are different aminals entirely. I dare say that with a great deal of work, samples could be manipulated to get a good simulation of a live orchestra but that's a huge amount of work and one has to evaluate if it's worth it. No sample library contains everything you're likely to need. That's before you get to notation software that allows only a limited range of articulations/manipulations.

A sequencer lets you "humanise" performance more easily - I'm sure Maestrox has commented on this. Like you can arrange for a note to come in a fraction of a beat early or late; you can do rubatos that notation software wouldn't allow (unless you notate exactly the effect you want, you may not want it written like that). And you can "write in" fader controls (really these are midi velocity "curves") to get attacks impossible to control with the same precision in notation software.

Realistic strings portamento are almost impossible unless you have special facilities in the samples or more advanced software. Legato is difficult enough.

I think this has arisen because notation software has taken what it saw as the nect logical step and tried to make itself a sequencer.

I'm currently working on a composition "managed down" to fit the usable samples I have and like, and that my computer can handle. It isn't easy!

[andreasvanharen]

Maybe the best way to go is then making to best out of it when trying to simulate an orchestra and not expect it ever to be a real orchestra recording. This recording should only be a demo for others to hear your work till the real orchestra will play it. And for the composer himself it is a good tool of course to get an idea of how the piece will sound when played by the real orchestra.

André

[MaestroX]

The main question "How do I make a great orchestra recording". There are two factors in this:

• Sample Quality
• Time and Effort

Most "good" sample libaries now com with an array of articulations but you need to put in the time and effort to get these to soun good.

I just wanted to bring up also, sampls aren't just a way of creating a "mock-up" of a final piece in many industries today, samples are passed off as the real thing. Films, Games and other media all use samples to cut down on budget and time to create the final product.

Reith has taken the approach of working round his sample libary to create the mot realistic performance. I usually take the approach of "score first, recording later".

To be honest you shouldn't have to worry about creating a good recording to get your music played (for the first time). Most conductors will have good enough score reading skills to judge a score on sight. Make connections with local orchestras, concert bands and you'll have your foot in the door.

If your looking for a sample libary there have already been a great many suggestions all of which are a matter of taste. The two big ones are:

• Vienna VSl Symphonic Cube
• EWQL Symphonic Orchestra (Comes in a variety of editions)

There is also the low budget range such as GPO etc

For an example of EWQL Symphonic Orchestra "Gold" edition in action you can check out my latest piece on this site: Film Overture (Maybe not the best example of what EWQL Symphonic Orchestra as I was on a tight schedule to get this done )

Any more questions please ask!

[reith]

Originally Posted by andreasvanharen

Maybe the best way to go is then making to best out of it when trying to simulate an orchestra and not expect it ever to be a real orchestra recording. This recording should only be a demo for others to hear your work till the real orchestra will play it. And for the composer himself it is a good tool of course to get an idea of how the piece will sound when played by the real orchestra.

André

I basically go along with this but take in Maestrox' point about films and games use sampled orchestras these days - simply because it's cheaper and..., well, in America, musicians' unions have shot themselves in the foot so many times, sampled/synthesised music is taking over pit orchestras (at ballets at least). That's fine because the music is incidental - certainly meets my approval (!) if the sound is adequate for the purpose.

I think Maestrox has me a little wrong though in that it's always been score first, by which I mean writing out a score on physical paper (rather than just keeping it in mind) no matter how scruffy - then preparing a full-score and, if necessary a sampled performance to check how things work.

What I meant was that I have done a fair bit of work on samples that I know will be useful because the instrumentation is available in local live groups, so I now tend to limit myself to these instruments. If I hope to get my works performed live I'd have to do that anyway. What does limit me is the available articulations unless I can "reshape" the sound envelopes myself - hence the work. So then, I run up a sequenced version. There isn't time or money to acquire everything I'd need to "do a Rite of Spring 2" or whatever! If I do need samples of some other instrument, I face much work!

So for the kind of film I'm likely to compose for, the music can stay in the digital domain if it's good enough. For something I might want to perform live, the sampled version is just a mock up.

[Thorolf]

There is also the huge problem with mixing! Most sample libraries try to get the sound of each instrument as good as possible, and in the mix, you end up having all the problems (except for crosstalk and feedback) that you have mixing a real orchestra, as well as the disadvantage of not having ambience stereo pairs for smoothing out the edges and add acoustic blend…

So, the samples is less than half the story.



Regards

[MaestroX]

I think Maestrox has me a little wrong though ;-) in that it's always been score first, by which I mean writing out a score on physical paper (rather than just keeping it in mind) no matter how scruffy - then preparing a full-score and, if necessary a sampled performance to check how things work.

Whoops, my apologies

So, the samples is less than half the story.

Very true! Mixing and mastering takes a long time and alot of good experience is needed to make a solid recording. I'm no expert but this is where many novices fail when creatig orchestra recording and working with samples, people tend to totally forget the basics. Because samples allow us to manipulate instruments beyond their real qualities people often forget that that you can't have a flute playing fff on middle C or a piccolo playing ppp in its highest registers. This can of course be used to the composer's advantage if you want to experiment with different timbres but its not suitable for a orchestal mock-up

[reith]

Well, Maestrox...I listened to your film Overture and it looks like you've got things sorted out all right!

[MaestroX]

Thanks!

I'm looking at writing an article soon to explain some of the concepts of rendering good orchestral recordings. It may take a few weeks to write up but it would help many users round here.

[Transcendental]

Just wanted to chime in that NOTION has pretty incredible sounding playback that responds to articulations, dynamics and phrasing directly from the score. You can also "play" the piece back and create a .wav file that has rubato, holds and lots of nuance.

Buying some additional sound kits will add to your arsenal of articulation/technique options; and it has immediate playback.

As to adjusting balance and changing timbres - you can use the "hidden" score markings feature in conjunction with the mixer to create the sound you want while leaving the score "looking" appropriate for printing. You can adjust the volume of an individual instrument in the mixer, or take the dynamic markings up or down to get the timbre you want, then just put "dummy" dynamics in the score to make an appropriate mock-up.

You can also adjust the panning for the instruments individually and it has stereo samples.

I think it's a great tool for creating recordings/demos and it's very helpful to be able to hear it as you go along - rather than writing the whole thing out and having to make adjustments after the fact to get the sound you thought you were going to get while writing it.

Nothing that I am aware of gets you every articulation and/or timbre you might want, but NOTION is really flexible and extensive, especially given the time it saves and the quality of the final product for your time/money.

If your editing software allows you to save as an XML file, it has fairly good import capabilities - although it's library of articulations is extensive enough that it's a good idea to import and add the articulations in NOTION. It save time editing and re-entering score markings.

SQ