Deciding on a Key

[Thorolf]

^ Here we disagree, stevel. While I never found D major “Majestic” or F Major “Pastoral”, I can relate to the description of Ab Major as “warm”. These matters are very subjective. I tend to find sharp keys “brighter” and flat keys “rounder”. A particular example is C sharp minor (4 sharps), very bright, sad, but light. And I could go on. As we (at least I!) tend to “learn” the sound of absolute pitched chords, eventually I associate particular archetypical usages for that chord when played by real instruments, and I find that the particularities of the individual pitches vary to an extreme degree, even if the chords/notes are only a semitone apart.

And I don’t think vocalists “get away with” transposing: If you compare, you find that almost always a standard looses som important qualities when transposed.

Just scoffing off things you don’t experience yourself, lacks some humbleness, in my opinion. While me too also find the typical romantic descriptions of the keys far too limited, I definitely hear differences between keys that is not related to string/pipe length only.



Regards

[PeterG]

Gentlemen,

I learned a lot from this thread already, but, having said that, I take a simple approach to it; if a new melody or piece of music or sequence or whatever form in my head that is worth while getting out and writing down I will try to capture the (absolute) pitch I hear inside.
Obviously then next question is what to do if it's in the middle between 2? Well, honestly it hardly ever is really in the middle between two, but in those cases I try both sides and see what best fits the feeling.

I will work out what key it is in later I guess..

[Thorolf]

Originally Posted by PeterG

[…] I take a simple approach to it; if a new melody or piece of music or sequence or whatever form in my head that is worth while getting out and writing down I will try to capture the (absolute) pitch I hear inside.

Funny you should mention it, because the first thing I do when something pops into my head, is to check the pitch to preserve all sides of the original idea…

(I always walk around with an electronic equivalent to a tuning fork in my pocket; a clock that can say pip, and I have found out that this pip is the note b)

Regards

[Peter Bolton]

It isn't a question of gaining or losing anything. The fact is that the pitch has changed and therefore the sound is different, even on my piano. I think if you tried your argument on the average classical composer you would get a look of incomprehension. Try listening to one of the sets of 24 preludes, for instance Chopin, Scriabin, Busoni, Kabalewski ot Shostakovich (or Bach come to that). The interesting thing about the equal tempered scale is that there is no perfect fifth. Sometimes imperfection can lead to interesting results.

[ttw]

One consideration arises keyboard music in choosing a key. That's the distribution of voices between high and low. I'm trying to decide whether I want the sound to be closely spaced (in C minor) with the bass C on the second space bass clef and the melody hovering about E on the fourth space of the treble or perhaps (in G minor) with the bass on the first line bass clef and the melody hovering about the B-flat above the treble. I'll just see how each sounds alone and then merges with the rest of the piece. There are other alternatives.

[stevel]

These matters are very subjective.

Exactly. Meaning that Ab is not warm. It is only warm to people who subjectively believe it is, or simply accept what they've been told it is. The other part of what your paragraph I've snipped said points to the fact that thinking of a key as anything is a learned response, not an inherent quality.

And I don’t think vocalists “get away with” transposing: If you compare, you find that almost always a standard looses som important qualities when transposed.

A Standard? You mean a Jazz standard. Gee, I'll be sure to mention that next time I hear the vocalist say "can we do this in A". If you're talking about classical standards - if key is so important, then why are there multiple versions of many vocal, and even instrumental works? It is far more important that the key coincide with the vocalist's range than it be in "X" key. That's why. No listener ever notices they aren't singing it in the original key (again with the exception of those with perfect pitch or good-enough relative pitch to notice).

I definitely hear differences between keys that is not related to string/pipe length only.

Well I think the important part here Thorolf is that *you* hear those differences. But it's something you're hearing, not something that's inherently there.

Beat,
Steve

[Thorolf]

Originally Posted by stevel

Well I think the important part here Thorolf is that *you* hear those differences. But it's something you're hearing, not something that's inherently there.

And even if you are *not* hearing it, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t inherently there… :tongue:





Regards

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Thorolf

And even if you are *not* hearing it, it doesn’t mean that it isn’t inherently there… :tongue:

Well, always a good point.

But a good counter example is modes: I don't ever hear anyone saying "Dorian on A is X, and Dorian on C is Y". They also don't even usually say things like "Dorian is darker than Mixolydian" which seems a far more obvious kind of assumption (and by "don't ever" I mean, so rarely as to be incalculable).

Interestingly, C major and D Dorian are the same set of notes, so shouldn't they be the same? If Ab is warm, then so should Bb Dorian be. Or if you don't believe that, then Ab Ionian is warm, then so should be Ab Mixolydian, or Ab Lydian.

I'm not saying now that we shouldn't ascribe our own classifications to things if we want. Certainly, many people ascribe "wandering" or "nebulous" or "dreamy" words with Whole Tone Scales. That's just something humans like to do (we like to anthropomorphize lots of things).

But what I'm suggesting is, one shouldn't tell the beginning composer to "write your piece in G Major if you want it to sound Pastoral" or things of that nature. There are far too many other elements that come into play to make it Pastoral that any such suggestion is a gross oversimplification of what key is. It can be a helpful oversimplification, but an oversimplification nonetheless. Gee, I just realized how unsimplified the word oversimplifications is. Seems like it should be simpler!

The better answer - Pick the key you want. You can transpose it later.

Best,
Steve

[Thorolf]

^ I agree very much that one should just use one’s own ears in this matter, definitely not inherited advice! For instrumentational practicalities, tho, one can always use a couple of tips for choosing a key.

Regards

[Peter Bolton]

I have nearly always found that a tune has decided for itself what key it is in, so that solved the problem for me. If one restates a theme an octave lower (or higher) there is a distinct change in its character, a fact that has been exploited by many composers. One could argue that the difference between keys is similar to viewing a monochrome picture in different colours. Does pink have a different psycholigical effect from pale blue?