Deciding on a Key

[Forte]

I was wondering the theory behind key changes and WHY they make significant effects. It used to sort of make sense to me, but now after thinking about it.. it's quite confusing.

For those of us that don't have perfect pitch... We could play a scale in B major, and most of us could not tell whether it was actually B major or C major, or any other scale for that matter. Why? Because it has the same pattern of whole/half steps.

Therefore, When deciding on a key, does it really make that much of a difference which you choose? Typically, if I'm going at the piano, I will compose a melody or find a phrase I like, and then decide "Ok, this is the signature it's in." I see no point in deciding a key signature prior to the composition process and then limiting myself to that. No key signatures can be associated with "Happy", "Sad", "Mysterious", etc... , that is unless you change to minor, or another such deviation.

Adding to that, or should I say continuing with what I started before I got carried away, ... Key signatures are unique, one from another, because of the tonic, where the home is located. So, is the reason why Key Signature changes are so impactful, because of this change in a sense of where "Home" is? But even yet, How can this really make so much of an impact, when one can not tell the emotion behind the piece just from the key signature in itself?

I'm sure I confused many of you! Any input on Key Signatures, changing them in composition, or selecting one to work with will due really. :-)

[ttw]

If writing for strings or winds, different fingerings give different sounds. Open strings have a differing timbre from stopped strings. To some extent, this causes different keys to have different tone colors.

On the piano or other equal-tempered instruments, there are no real differences among the keys except pitch. There is a bit of a difference in that one may want to use different voicings in different keys.

Key changes are a different matter. In popular music, most key moves are just simple transpositions. We used to play "Delta Dawn" in Bb for the first two verse-chorsuses then move up to C then to D then to E for the nexe ons.

In classically-oriented music (broadly speaking, non-pop, non-jazz), key changes are of significance in themselves. A common occurence, is to play some material in one key then play other material (or even the same material) in a different key. The use of different keys sets up a tension that needs some type of resolution. This need for resolution governs the rest of the piece.

[Ron Ofir]

I remembering readin somewhere that keys have a different feeling because of different overtones. I noticed that when I play the Gmajor scale on my guitar, particularly the Mixolydian and Lydian patterns (starting on the 8th and 10th fret of the low E string), I hear quite a few overtones which makes even going up and down sound real good. I also saw somewhere Bach's Prelude in C transposed to F in a Just system, and it sounded really weird. I'll look for the link.

[stevel]

I was wondering the theory behind key changes and WHY they make significant effects. It used to sort of make sense to me, but now after thinking about it.. it's quite confusing.

Different keys don't have different effect. That's a value that we place upon the keys - it's not inherent. However, I will say that in certain tunings, certianly keys are different - however we quantify that (brighter, tenser, sadder, etc.)

For those of us that don't have perfect pitch... We could play a scale in B major, and most of us could not tell whether it was actually B major or C major, or any other scale for that matter. Why? Because it has the same pattern of whole/half steps.

That's right. And that's part of the point of 12tet. Now, I will say that certain keys are used so much that they get sort of "bland". To me, Db is very "warm" and B very rich. C is just "plain". But on guitar, certain keys like G or D are used so much that they're downright appalling. It's like, oh great, ANOTHER song in G. Then a song in F becomes exciting. But all that is based on previous listening experiences, not anything inherent in the key.

Therefore, When deciding on a key, does it really make that much of a difference which you choose?

No. But having said that, there are some techinical issues to take into consideration. If you can write something for Guitar in A, then you probably shouldn't write it in Ab for technical considerations. The same could be said about piano - while excellent players play equally well in all keys, even amateur to semi-pro would probably prefer C over G# Major any day!

Typically, if I'm going at the piano, I will compose a melody or find a phrase I like, and then decide "Ok, this is the signature it's in." I see no point in deciding a key signature prior to the composition process and then limiting myself to that.

I agree with you. I might only reconsider the key in such an instance if I decide that it's goint be for Flute for instance, and I need to move it from Bb to C so it's in the range of the instrument. Other than that, it's "first come first served".

No key signatures can be associated with "Happy", "Sad", "Mysterious", etc... , that is unless you change to minor, or another such deviation.

I think "happy and sad" are oversimplifications (Ludwig excused). It's really still about the music. I think if a composer thinks "I want to compose something sad", then they shouldn't just default to minor - after all, you could use a lot of minor chords in a Major key! I think that's the same kind of cop out as the atonality discussion - don't just go by what you've been told - figure it out for your self!

Adding to that, or should I say continuing with what I started before I got carried away, ... Key signatures are unique, one from another, because of the tonic, where the home is located. So, is the reason why Key Signature changes are so impactful, because of this change in a sense of where "Home" is? But even yet, How can this really make so much of an impact, when one can not tell the emotion behind the piece just from the key signature in itself?

Well, are you talking about the key of a piece, or changes of key WITHIN a piece? A key change from C Major to A Major is going to be "different" than C to F. But even then, there are multiple ways to change from C to A that have different impacts. But again, I think a lot of this is learned. We still see C to A as being "not very common". But we're judging that against all tonal music where C to G would be a "common" modulation. But if we take it out of context, the difference between C to A and C to G is in the number of notes common to both keys - a facet which a composer could choose to take advantage of or ignore.

Does that help?

Steve

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Ron Ofir

I remembering readin somewhere that keys have a different feeling because of different overtones. I noticed that when I play the Gmajor scale on my guitar, particularly the Mixolydian and Lydian patterns (starting on the 8th and 10th fret of the low E string), I hear quite a few overtones which makes even going up and down sound real good. I also saw somewhere Bach's Prelude in C transposed to F in a Just system, and it sounded really weird. I'll look for the link.

Ron, guitar is kind of unique in that you have both open/stopped strings to consider, as well as string diameter and length. For instance, if you play a G chord G-D-G-B in open position, you're coing to get a completely different set of overtones than when you play it Barred in 3rd position (6/3-5/5-4/5-3/4 (s/f)).

Try this - play the B on the low E at the 17th fret. Then play it at on the A at the 14th. Then on the D at the 9th, G at 4th, and B open - I think you'll find a significant amount of difference there.

So it's got far less to do with the key itself than the construction of the instruement.

Here's another experiment if you've got time:

Put a Capo on the first fret of your guitar and play for a week. At the edn of the week take it off and play an OPen E chord - I think you'll find the guitar sounds "huge" - but it's the same E you've always played!

You can also tune down a half step for a week, then tune back to standard. You'd be surprised at the difference.

But I think you'kk find there's a "sameness" for Gmajor - whether it's up a hlaf step with the capo, ordinary, or down a half step with the dropped tuning. So it's not the fact that it's G#M, GM, or GbM, but the fact that you become "desensitized" to the sound after a while.

Orchestras are notorius for doing this - they want to tune to 441 to make it "brighter" - well yeah, the violins are about to implode from the increased tension on the strings. But what happens? two weeks later 441 is no longer bright, and they want to go up to 442. If the fools would tune down to 439 for a month, 440 would sound glorious all of the sudden!

Best,
Steve

[PeterG]

Guys,

In my opinion it's not the technical differences we're looking for when we want to define key differences. They are there ofcourse, the overtones that differ (the mathematics even), the differences in playing them on different instruments (some instruments are"designed" for certain keys; they just do fantastic with it) but,
The basis of all music is that our brain reacts to it and some sounds will produce other reactions inside your mind than other resulting in sadness, happiness, alpha waves or whatever. It comes down to interpretation on the mind.

Originally Posted by stevel

I think if a composer thinks "I want to compose something sad", then they shouldn't just default to minor - after all, you could use a lot of minor chords in a Major key! I think that's the same kind of cop out as the atonality discussion - don't just go by what you've been told - figure it out for your self!
Steve

So right here Steve. Just think of Mozart, writing so much music in major keys, and still be able to let you feel sad, happy, mad, comforted, alone,..... confused even. It's not the equipment (key), it's what you do with it (the notes).

When it comes to my own writing; I stopped thinking of keys at the start of the writing process (I did that when I was young, but it really didn't work well). In my mind a melody will pop up, and I will try to find out the notes I hear inside to capture it; my brain decides on the key basically. All my initial start-scribbles are written down as C major and I just add sharps or flats to accomodate if necessary. I don't care about the underlying key at this stage. I'll try to find the matching second voices, bassnotes I hear going with it as well notating them in the same way and only THEN... I'll try to deduce the key signature will all it's attributes..

On the matter of key changes during a piece; to me they usually just "happen" the notes go somewhere and I find that the original key signature does not fit anymore (I have to correct all kind of notes all of a sudden). 9 out of 10 times it does fit however and I'm only switching from the basic major key to the corresponding minor with the same flats and sharps.

Lastly; I have a preference for some keys, not set by how to play them (I basically can't play anything really good on the piano) but because I love the sounds and my mind keeps creating new things in that key. Don't you guys have favorite keys?

greetings,

Peter

[stevel]

Don't you guys have favorite keys?

D minor. The saddest of all keys.

Steve

[Ron Ofir]

D minor. The saddest of all keys.

Heh, great reference!

[Peter Bolton]

If you think that all keys are the same because they have the same sequence of tones and half-tones then I think you have missed something rather fundamental about the nature of music. D major is very much not the same as C major, in fact it is a whole tone higher in pitch and that has a whole gamut of emotional implications. Minor keys can be used for sad music but Schubert's 'Am Meer', one of the saddest songs ever written is in, guess what, C major.

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Peter Bolton

If you think that all keys are the same because they have the same sequence of tones and half-tones then I think you have missed something rather fundamental about the nature of music.

Peter, I've tried to address this a couple of different ways but I can't come up with anything that doesn't sound like I'm railing on you, so I'll just go with it.

If it were true that keys had some unique quality about them, vocalists wouldn't be able to get away with transposing music the way they do. "America, The Beautiful" doesn't lose or gain anything when the pianist has to play it in C, Db, or D, etc.

In other words, D is not "Majestic" and F "Pastoral" and Ab "Warm" or any such nonesense. Now, having said that, it is true that different ranges of notes will sound different on instruments whose timbre changes as you go up or down. Lowering something from D to C on Cello will likely make the low C available which will cause a "fuller" sound because everything in the piece might be played in a lower position, thus making all the strings have a longer sounding length.

Sorry,

Steve