If I may have 4 Minutes and 33 Seconds of your time...

[stevel]

This discussion of 4'33'' is one I've had before as I'm sure many others have.

It really brings into question, what is music, and what is art.

I tried to define music. So, what is music?

I came to the conclusion that any definition of music must include sound as a factor obviously. But what else?

The problem I ran into was, and not being able to describe it any better, intent:

Is a mahine running music? Well, I think it can be musical. But musical means like music, thus we must always differentiate between the two.

But, if you hear a machine running as music, or even musical, it is YOU the listener who is hearing it that way. YOU intend to hear that succession of sounds in time as being musical, or possibly even music.

So in a sense, this means ANYTHING can be music if a person chooses to hear it as music. This bothers a lot of people because it means anyone can say anything is music.

On the flip side, there are a lot of people who have very traditional definitions of music. This is what everyone everywhere pretty much calls music - none of the grey area stuff. Of course I've heard people say that Rap is not music. Of course it is. It just happens to be music that person doesn't like. But likes and dislikes aside, this bothers some people becuase defining music as X, means that Y can't exist, get performed, get funded, etc.

Ok. There are people out there who would like to define music in a certain way for their own selfish goals. These people are bad. These are the people who wanted to ban Rock and Roll because Elvis shook is pelvis. These people have other hang-ups and prejudices that they try to put off on the music itself, which is simply silly.

But there are also people out there who would like to define music in a certain way for their own selfish goals. These people are also bad. These are the people that want to embrace Aleatoric music because it pisses off the people who like traditional music.

But this is all about the intent of the listener. What about the intent of the composer?

What if the machine running was designed to create something the creator thought was music. Is it?

What if someone records a machine running and uses samples of it in a piece? Is it music (well, a musical element).

Is a single chord music? What if it's presented within the context of something that's fairly obviously a musical piece? If you have 1 movment about 3 minutes, then Movement 2 is a single chord, and mvmt 3 is 4 minutes, and it's tonal as all get out, is it music? Is the second movement music? Could you excerpt it and only play it? We do it with Sonatas with 3 movements.

I feel that, the sounds that are "music" must be presented in a musical context - a performance, a recording, etc. It must exist in time in other words. Notes on paper are not music (I don't mean sheet music of course) - they're merely instructions. It's not until the piece exists in time and space (the air) that it becomes music.

So I feel that random sounds are not music. But, if you go to listen to a piece that contains nothing but random sounds, it is music.

Now, what makes it a "piece" is it being presented as such.

It is the performer, or the performance medium that "creates" the music.

Now, what if the performance medium is wind through the trees. Well, no intent for it to be a musical performance, so not music. YOU may choose to hear it as such, but you would be one of a minority I think.

Is poetry music? No. It's intended to be poetry. Is poetry that is sung music? Yes, it's intended to be presented as such.

Now this brings to bear the problems with things like sounds. Suppose a composer goes out and records the sounds of nature and calls it a piece? You listen to it on CD. Are you listening to music? The composer is asking you to - are you willing to?

There's obviously a lot in here to cover, but I wanted to get others' thoughts.

So what do you think?

Is 4'33'' music?
What is music?

Peace (we'll need it),

Steve

[chckn8r]

You weren't kidding when you said you'd start another thread! Way to stir the pot Steve... Now little Johnny's going to start throwing the mash potatoes and someone's going to start crying...

Why don't we just ask all the questions while we're at it:

What's better analogue or digital?
What's the superior platform- Mac or PC?
Should we say tomAHto or tomAYto?

[reith]

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. (4'33")

[Boneman]

Nice one R.

[reith]

I'm surprised that Silence is the only Cage piece that has come under fire. Fontana Mix is just as contraversial.

Steve, I think that trying to define music is a lost cause. It seems to be a consensus, much as any of the "creative" arts. Perhaps we need new terms.

[reith]

Originally Posted by Boneman

Nice one R.

Ta!

How are you anyway? What brings you into unusual territory such as this, may I ask?

[ttw]

There's a nice recording by Music Minus All.

[reith]

Originally Posted by ttw

There's a nice recording by Music Minus All.

Don't laugh but I recall a cafe that had a 45* on its juke box with nothing recorded on it so you could buy a few pence worth of silence, the irony being that it wasn't totally silent. A double irony if it lasted 4'33"... a coincidence if it did, I'm sure!

*for the very young: an old-style plastic gramophone record that rotated at 45rpm - used for pop songs, you could get maybe 5 mins of music/silence on it.

In seriousness, Steve, "music" is one of those probably undefinable abstract nouns. It exists in the ears of the beholder. I'd prefer it to be called sonic or aural art these days. The same has happened in all the media, sometimes in combination. I look at what passes for "art" in our Tate Modern and... it's crap (sometimes literally) in my view. Others derive some satisfaction from it though.

[stevel]

But these have specific answers:

What's better analogue or digital?

Depends on what you're doing.

What's the superior platform- Mac or PC?

Mac. Duh.

Should we say tomAHto or tomAYto?

It's TomAYto. But, it's not a vegetable, it's a fruit. The government classified it as a vegetable so they wouldn't have to pay taxes on it. It's also a perennial but it's usually grown as an annual.
So is something what it is, or how we define it :-)

Steve

[stevel]

ROTFL!!!!.

I think your post says it all Reith :-)

Steve