The “Cultural Influence” Myth

[Thorolf]

I got spurred on by some guy elsewhere to focus on what I consider a myth: That our cultural luggage decides what we find interresting musically:

Originally Posted by some guy

As for "can relate to," that's so obviously a matter of training and experience, I'm surprised anyone has the temerity to use it as if it were some sort of touchstone.

I have two children, now 3 and 4 1/2. Both of them share a quality that I remember from my own childhood: That there are certain songs, movements of bigger works, in other words, certain tracks that hit them in a special way, that make them want to hear it over and over again. The interresting part is that this selection of certain tracks starts before a general exposure to music: We never listen to the radio, never turn on the TV but to play DVDs and videos, etc., again in other words: We know what the total exposure of music on our children actually is to a great extent.

Nevertheless, both of them independently singeled out live versions of “The Man Machine” by Kraftwerk for repeated listening before the age of 2, and has highly biased personal favourites, as opposed to the vast oceans of music that is indifferent to them: It has to be exactly “Paperback Writer” and “Day Tripper” by The Beatles; no other tracks by this group will do. I have tried to make them familiar with certain artists and composers, but to no avail, as the power of the ideas of certain tracks, i. e. recorded compositions, is far more important to them than composer, style, group, sound or form.

This makes me conclude that the recognition of highly unrelated qualities start before we get most of our “baggage”, if we only let the children be shielded from being bombarded by mass culture, and let them choose for themselves. (This is true for me and my children, anyway!)



Regards

[chckn8r]

Originally Posted by Thorolf

I got spurred on by some guy elsewhere to focus on what I consider a myth: That our cultural luggage decides what we find interresting musically:I have two children, now 3 and 4 1/2. Both of them share a quality that I remember from my own childhood: That there are certain songs, movements of bigger works, in other words, certain tracks that hit them in a special way, that make them want to hear it over and over again.

LOL! I have three kids (7.5, 4.5 and 3) - and I experience the same!

Originally Posted by Thorolf

The interresting part is that this selection of certain tracks starts before a general exposure to music: We never listen to the radio, never turn on the TV but to play DVDs and videos, etc., again in other words: We know what the total exposure of music on our children actually is to a great extent.

I don't really think that, once a child is born into the world, there is a time before a general exposure to music. Unless you control EVERY aspect of their environment, they're bound to hear and pay attention to all that is going on around them.

Everything about brain development in a child is not known for absolute certain, but it is believed that the infant brain is actively learning and absorbing an exponential amount of information when compared to ours. We've learned to filter out certain things - actively paying attention to some things, passively others and ignoring a lot. Infants haven't developed these skills yet and they're most likely absorbing all they experience - language and music included.

In much the same way that they're imprinting their parent's language in their mind, they're most probably doing the same with any of the music they hear.

Originally Posted by Thorolf

Nevertheless, both of them independently singeled out live versions of “The Man Machine” by Kraftwerk for repeated listening before the age of 2, and has highly biased personal favourites, as opposed to the vast oceans of music that is indifferent to them: It has to be exactly “Paperback Writer” and “Day Tripper” by The Beatles; no other tracks by this group will do. I have tried to make them familiar with certain artists and composers, but to no avail, as the power of the ideas of certain tracks, i. e. recorded compositions, is far more important to them than composer, style, group, sound or form.

Except for me, it's the Presidents of the United States of America's version of "Video Killed the Radio Star" (they don't like Trevor Horns' original rendition) and the Beatles, but they prefer Yellow Submarine and Octopus's Garden (don't know what it is with the water theme there...). There are a few other pieces, but yes, even with attempts to play a wider variety of styles and artists, they always seem to gravitate back to their personal "best of" selections.

Originally Posted by Thorolf

This makes me conclude that the recognition of highly unrelated qualities start before we get most of our “baggage”, if we only let the children be shielded from being bombarded by mass culture, and let them choose for themselves. (This is true for me and my children, anyway!)

Although it is impossible to completely shield our kids from everything, I think they need some sort of reference points from which to make artistic decisions. Unfortunately, I believe that we have little influence over what they choose to like or dislike.

With observing my three kids growing, I'm more convinced that personalities, likes, dislikes and such are more influenced by nature than nurture.

We, as parents provide some boundaries, influence some behavioural factors, provide guidance on beliefs in right and wrong, teach, console, comfort, discipline... but I believe that there is a lot more that is uniquely "hard-wired" in each and every person. What we do as parents to influence artistic likes and dislikes may have some influence on our children, but in the end, our opinions will most likely, not have overwhelming weight in their eventual adult artistic opinions.

Great thoughts Thorlof!

D

[stevel]

Originally Posted by chckn8r

LOL! I have three kids (7.5, 4.5 and 3) - and I experience the same!


D

I have 7 and 3.11 (next month he'll be 4).

I have to say that while there might be certain things they've keyed into in music (Barbara Ann by the Beach Boys, Ring of Fire by Johnny Cash), the other things they key into can be just as much, if not much more revealing. For instance, I don't know if you guys should be placing too much importance on what your kids single out - because if your kids are like mine, they're just as likely to single out the human actions of farting and belching as something they consider "art forms"!!!!

Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrp!

(remember to teach them to say "that was a good one" instead of "excuse me" - that really gets the wife (grandparent, etc.) going :-).

Steve

[chckn8r]

Originally Posted by stevel

(remember to teach them to say "that was a good one" instead of "excuse me" - that really gets the wife (grandparent, etc.) going :-).

or better yet, get them to pull each others' finger and ask "thank you sir, may I have another?" I'll adamantly deny having any involvement in this exercise if questioned and tortured...

[Thorolf]

Originally Posted by stevel

I don't know if you guys should be placing too much importance on what your kids single out - because if your kids are like mine, they're just as likely to single out the human actions of farting and belching as something they consider "art forms"!!!!

I presume you’re joking here, but for the record, I think that events like farting etc. falls into the category of “cool tricks” like the ability to stand/jump on one leg without falling over etc., while the prolonged consentration that makes my three-year-old listen for 9 minutes plus to “Boing Boom Tschak (Musique Non Stop)” by Kraftwerk—only to say “once more!”—suggests a deeper kind of magic…

He responds to “cool tricks”, all right, but definitely in another way to e. g. his latest love, “Happy Guy” by Devo.

Otherwize, I of course haven’t “controlled” every single moment that my children has experienced, but knowing that the home and kindergarden routines of my children is fairly well known, I can actually say for certain that the usual media pressure (esp. in the home), with TV and radio input all the time, doesn’t apply to my children. I also know this to preceed birth…

Originally Posted by chckn8r

With observing my three kids growing, I'm more convinced that personalities, likes, dislikes and such are more influenced by nature than nurture.

Exactly my feelings on the matter!

Regards

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Thorolf

I presume you’re joking here,

OK, in seriousness, I don't think you can completely ignore cultural influence as a myth though.

Sure, there are going to be natural or innate likes and dislikes.

However, how we define things, and therefore think about them are culturally influenced.

Watch one episode of Bizarre Foods and you'll see what I mean: People may innately like citrus-flavored food items, but may be culturally inclined not to consider mealworms to be "food".

Steve

[Thorolf]

Originally Posted by stevel

OK, in seriousness, I don't think you can completely ignore cultural influence as a myth though.

Sure, there are going to be natural or innate likes and dislikes.

However, how we define things, and therefore think about them are culturally influenced.

To be clear: I do not deny the existence of cultural influence!

But I think that “training and experience” is overrated in defining someones artistic persona, if the person in question is young—and has a choice.

Of course all kinds of experienced lingusitic—and artistic—structures play a role in forging our cognitive receptors on all levels. I just suggest that there is a deeper level, where people—like me—can relate to yet unheard musical structures, beyond the clichés of “culture”. And that this is most evident in small children, who simply hasn’t had time to be musically forged into a “culturally familiar” set of codes which vary from culture to culture.



Regards

[Will Kirk]

Well I think that there are all kinds of influences that can affect a person's mind, be it a child or adult

For instance, I am Irish from my mom's side of the family, and Scottish from my dad's side. And both my parents were raised in the south. I myself was born in San Juan Puerto Rico. So I could not have been more different in culture, but for some reason I absolutely ADORE Spanish music. Is it cultural influence? Or is it just my personal tastes?

To tell the truth I'll probably never know for sure

But in all seriousness, I think it's also a matter of what we choose to expose kids to, both of my parents tried to expose me to music at a young age (piano) but I never took an interest in any kind of music until about 2 years ago. that's when I took up the Classical Guitar, and I started on Jazz Bass about 2 or 3 months ago.

However I had no interest in music whatsoever up to that point two years ago. So I also believe that it's a matter of how receptive kids are at the time of exposure to certain things.

Catch my drift?

[some guy]

Well, all I can say is that I grew up in a family that didn't listen to music at all. There was some, on t.v. mostly. Occasionally, dad would play some Ray Coniff or Percy Faith on the hi fi, but very infrequently. And never to listen to. Then I got some 78s from a half brother when I was eight that included some classical snippets collections, Rusty in Orchestraville, Sparky's Magic Piano, and part of Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf. Among other things. Those were what really captured my imagination. And I've been listening to classical music ever since. So to add to Thorolf's thesis, apparently it's possible to go contrary to nurture, so strong is that nature thing.

[SeriouslyRetro]

Originally Posted by some guy

Well, all I can say is that I grew up in a family that didn't listen to music at all. There was some, on t.v. mostly. Occasionally, dad would play some Ray Coniff or Percy Faith on the hi fi, but very infrequently. And never to listen to. Then I got some 78s from a half brother when I was eight that included some classical snippets collections, Rusty in Orchestraville, Sparky's Magic Piano, and part of Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf. Among other things. Those were what really captured my imagination. And I've been listening to classical music ever since. So to add to Thorolf's thesis, apparently it's possible to go contrary to nurture, so strong is that nature thing.

Same here. Nobody in my family listened to music at all. There was TV of course, but we didn't have a stereo or even radio - except in the car and that was never turned on. I had a vague idea that my parents liked Country music, but they never played any. Later, all my friends started listening to Heavy Metal and Pop, but I didn't like it at all. It was only years later that I decided that I liked Baroque music. I certainly had no exposure to it as a child.