GeNiaLiTy = BacH?

[Composer]

Hey.

Yesterday I read something very interesting about the composition technigues of JS Bach in a lovely, philosofic theory book of mine by the danish composer, Karl Aage Rasmussen. A collection of 11 ( i think ) essays from him. And in one he descriped the connection between Bach and maths.

Very interesting.

An italian musician had discovered that Bach must have had calculated his works. They are full of numbers. He should have used a scheme like this:

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I've chosen some easy values - in boths ways the sum has to be 6.

The one way: 1 + 2 +3 = 6 The second way 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 6

This should have been with tunes, not numbers. In some of the sketches by Bach, there were numbers and so! He HAS used numbers and math. And he liked it.

Now, some of the REAL interesting stuff:

Bach wrote in his last years " The Well-temperiert klavier II " and " Kunst der Fuge ".

The chabbalistic value of the initials BACH is 2138.
B is the second number in the alphabete - A the first - and so on.......

The sum of bars in Kunst der Fuge is 2135 bars - exactly. - And in Wohltemperiert Klavier too!!!

This cant be something randomly. The BOTH collections!!

And then of cause, you think, the chabbalistic value of Bach were not 2135 but 2138 - there is a different of 3!! The religious number! God is ALWAYS related to the number 3.

Were Bach send by God?


(...)

Okay. Bach used maths for composing. Cool we think.

But is that geniality? Is it genious to find a formulla and use that for composing hundreds of works??

The italian guy tried to compose with it. But without succes. It was to be heard, that it was good music. But something missed.

What is the missing part? Geniality? A help from God?

Were bach a genious composer or mathematican??



Regards

Composer.

[Thorolf]

This is numerology. Numerology is pseudoscience. For an account on the allure, but fallacy of numerology, check: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines...umerology.html

Numerology is, in short, gleaning for mathematical relationships, where there are really none. Typically, numerologists claim that assasinations of today is foretold in the Bible. As an example of what can be obtained, if you only look for it, sceptics have shown that the same thing can be obtained by gleaning e. g. the novel “Moby Dick”. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html



That said, the relationships between maths and music is rock solid, vividly told by e. g. Walt Disney in “Donald in Mathmagic Land” (1959). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052751/

But you will have to know some maths, and be sceptical about it to see where the real relationships ends and the numerology starts.

Regards

[Silhouette]

A good find composer, but i think Thorolf has some good points, it makes more sense to be numerology and like he said you can make a large find out of something small.
Do you know why Bach used this technique? Was it more effective?

[MaestroX]

Yeah, some good points. I think he would have only ever adopted the technique if it was useful. If no one has managed to compose "bach-like" music using this technique then i'm sure its just a myth. Maybe an example from one of his pieces would sway my mind.

[Composer]

Originally Posted by Thorolf

This is numerology. Numerology is pseudoscience. For an account on the allure, but fallacy of numerology, check: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines...umerology.html

Numerology is, in short, gleaning for mathematical relationships, where there are really none. Typically, numerologists claim that assasinations of today is foretold in the Bible. As an example of what can be obtained, if you only look for it, sceptics have shown that the same thing can be obtained by gleaning e. g. the novel “Moby Dick”. http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html



That said, the relationships between maths and music is rock solid, vividly told by e. g. Walt Disney in “Donald in Matchmagic Land” (1959). http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052751/

But you will have to know some maths, and be sceptical about it to see where the real relationships ends and the numerology starts.

Regards

Yes, I know maths and " that the realtionship between math and music is rock solid ". I just thought this was a very interesting example, I wanted to share with you guyes.



.sdrageR

[Thorolf]

And I suggest you left mathemathics for numerology at the point in you post where you started to assign chabbalistic values to something…

In particular, explaining the discrepancy between 2135 and 2138 with the need for God is a typical numerological fallacy. You could equally well argue that Bach (2138) was a divine composer, but failed to convey his divinity to the works in question: Divine Bach (2138) minus God (3) equals Die Kunst der Fuge (2135) and in Das Wohltemperierte Klavier (2135).



Regards

[Composer]

Originally Posted by Thorolf

And I suggest you left mathemathics for numerology at the point in you post where you started to assign chabbalistic values to something…

In particular, explaining the discrepancy between 2135 and 2138 with the need for God is a typical numerological fallacy. You could equally well argue that Bach (2138) was a divine composer, but failed to convey his divinity to the works in question: Divine Bach (2138) minus God (3) equals Die Kunst der Fuge (2135) and in Das Wohltemperierte Klavier (2135).



Regards

[Halpm]

Originally Posted by Composer

Were bach a genious composer or mathematican??

Why not both? The fact is, his music is deeply moving - if it makes mathematical sense as well - does that give it less emotional and aesthetic value? It's still the same music - and it causes the same reactions. The fact is - he is one of the composers throughout history who has inspired me - and countless other young composers, from mozart's time onwards - most - and he wouldn't have done that if there wasn't some - indeed great - emotional value in his work.

[Chris Burton]

I've never acually seen Bach analyzed by way of numbers but I have heard of it being done. Whether or not it is a coincidence or not, Bach was very gifted at the amount of substance that he was able to put into a work. Even the letters of his name B-A-C-H (B being Bb and H being the equivilant of our modern B natural) were used as a motif quite often and are still used by composers today in themes and motifs.

[LethalBunny]

I believe that all musicians unwittingly develop mathematical rules to their music, they do it without realizing it. It's a bit like if you learn how to cook, after a while you know what works and you know what doesn't, and by intuition you learn what to do. That is what happens to the composers, sure, they don't intend to develop a system, it just happens because of personal taste. Claude Debussy also worked a bit like this, from study they have seen that his music revolves around a 'golden ratio'.

These composers developed mathematical systems without realizing it. I know this, because after time I just know what works and what doesn't, you get a feeling for it. Mathematics simply describes how things work, and everyone gets their own way of doing things, and thus there must be a mathematical explanation to how every person works. Even a simple child playing the piano would work via a mathematical formula if you look deeply enough. Their basic rule is *bash hand on piano to make noise* whereas our rules extend to *experiment and play with notes and combinations until it feels right* and I suppose that when it feels right, that the music would have satisfied our inner sense of mathematical understanding of music. A lot of what is done in music is not conscious.