Double sharps and flats

[Violoncello]

This sounds really naive I'm sure, but can anyone explain why music has double-sharps and double-flats? I understand about accidentals but not these doubles that seem to fall on white notes on a keyboard. Why not write them as the naturals they fall on? There's probably a simple answer so I hope I'm not wasting your time.

Thanks.

[Ron Ofir]

The reason they're not naturals is the same reason that we differentiate between B and Cb. It depends on the context of the notes, for example look at G#m, which has 5 sharps: G# A# B C# D# E F#. When you ascend to the root from the sixth degree, in classical music, you raise the 6th and 7th degrees which gives E# and F+. Now, F+ is the same as G (in well-tempered music), but since you don't mean the lowered root (G), and you mean the raised 7th, you need to use F+. That's what I like in the guitar, you don't need to think about whether it is a black or a white key, it all just seems to fit with the patterns of the scale.

I'm sure someone else (stevel?) will come and explain (correct?) what I've said.

[chckn8r]

Yeah, Steve will most likely have a more detailed and concise answer, but Ron has the right idea.

When writing chords, one does not write only by sound, but also by how the chord is logically structured and "spelled". When reading music, it may not be readily apparent, but the structure of the chord on the staff complete with how the different notes "fit" and lead to the next notes is important. A double sharp / flat will aid in keeping things looking normal and being in context on the staff.

D

[Boneman]

I for one would like a simple explanation. I am forever being asked by players,"Why did you not write G instead of Fx!"

[Thorolf]

^ The correct answer (spelling conventions/context etc.) isn’t always good enough: When it comes to writing parts, it’s sometimes wize to reformulate, and indeed write G instead of Fx…

If it actually makes it easier to read for the musician, go for that! But when it comes to melodic lines, the right thing is to keep the double accidential gibberish in most cases…

You have to use your reading experiences as a musician to “see” what “looks” right (in context and yak yak yak).



Regards

[chckn8r]

Originally Posted by Thorolf

The correct answer (spelling conventions/context etc.) isn’t always good enough: When it comes to writing parts, it’s sometimes wize to reformulate, and indeed write G instead of Fx…

Quite right! Some part writing conventions (at least in film scoring) even do away with key signatures and spells out deviations from "white keys" as an accidental - some suggesting that you use sharps when ascending and flats when descending. In those cases, it doesn't even make sense to use double sharps / flats.

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Ron Ofir

The reason they're not naturals is the same reason that we differentiate between B and Cb. It depends on the context of the notes, for example look at G#m, which has 5 sharps: G# A# B C# D# E F#. When you ascend to the root from the sixth degree, in classical music, you raise the 6th and 7th degrees which gives E# and F+. Now, F+ is the same as G (in well-tempered music), but since you don't mean the lowered root (G), and you mean the raised 7th, you need to use F+. That's what I like in the guitar, you don't need to think about whether it is a black or a white key, it all just seems to fit with the patterns of the scale.

I'm sure someone else (stevel?) will come and explain (correct?) what I've said.

You're correct Ron. I will just add for Violoncello that remember - Piano is not the only instrument out there! It's often good just to visualize notes "in space" rather than related to the piano keyboard.

Steve

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Boneman

I for one would like a simple explanation. I am forever being asked by players,"Why did you not write G instead of Fx!"

There's no "simple" explanation.

It's really convention, or tradition.

One reason to use a double-flat or sharp is to indicate from which note the deviation occurred. For instance, E# tells us that what was an E has been altered. Putting F carries far less significance!

Another reason is spelling conventions - scales have 7 and only 7 notes, one of each letter. Tertian chords have letter names a third apart. So you don't want C minor to read C D D# F G Ab Bb - there's no E! And a C minor chord can't be C D# G. Even though it's "right", it circumvents the logic of the letter naming system.

It also helps us distinguish between intervals - for instance, any C to any D is a 2nd. Period. C to D# is an augmented 2nd (+2). But C to Eb is a m3. We want the interval and note selection to reflect the key in key-based music.

Finally, an important distinction that many pianists and guitarists miss - although on the other hand the non-pianists are stuck on it just as much, is that to players using non 12tet systems, or who are adjusting pitch on the fly to "correct" intervals, make a distinction between F# and Gb. Not only that, but they make a distinction between C# in an A chord, and C# in an F# chord! (so really, these don't have to do with enhamronic spellings, but tuning, yet it still gets confused).

Another reason to choose an enharmonic spelling might be to indicate direction - for instance, you might find:
F F# G in an ascending passage in C, and
G Gb F in a descending passage. Sometimes these alterations are the result of chords where they have to be spelled that way, but other times it's simply for convenience's (reading) sake - it helps show direction - flats make people think "down", etc.

In the recent discussion about the Augmented 6th, there's an important facet there too, because, it's a non-tertian sonority. That means is does not (and should not) have to be spelled with every other letter (which is also the fallacy in trying to invert it and spell it as some type of II chord).
In C minor, Ab C Eb F# leads to G by virtue of the F being altered to F# - we want to show that rising chromatic line and the direction in which it should continue. In C Major, the Ab is also altered and we don't call it G# which would imply an upward resolution, but Ab, which wants to go down. In fact, in C major, the Eb is often spelled as D# because its typical resolution is to the E note thus ut shows direction too.

So you should write:
F F# G
G Gb F
D Eb D and
B A# B for patterns like that. If you started on a #, you'd have:

F# Fx G#
G# Gn F#
D# E D#
B# Ax B#

and so on.

However, BIG disclaimer here - in highly chromatic music, ease of reading may take precedence over traditional naming schemes and usually direction, or simplicity (i.e. using single rather than double accidentals) wins out.

So instead of B# Ax B3, you'd more likely find B# Bn B#, or in a non-tonal context, C B C!.

Steve

[PeterG]

Hello all,

May I add to this a very other view?

There is a simple answer to the question: they are NOT the same notes.

On a keyboard like a piano a double # F is essentially the same key as the white G, BUT that changes when you for instance play another instrument. I have experience with playing an oboe and on that you can make the double # F sound differerent than the G (a tiny bit lower than a G, maybe only 1 Hz difference?) as example, which fits the scale you work with better than a G.

So, it may seem silly on a piano but it makes perfect sense on an oboe to write F## in stead of G. I know this applies to other instruments too (a guitar can do a string bend to compensate I guess, a violin or any other one in the family of fressless types can do it too, trumpets too, trombones, flutes, many instruments come to think of it).

Unless you cannot hear the difference of course. Did everyone do the hearing test?

regards,

Peter

[chckn8r]

Originally Posted by PeterG

I have experience with playing an oboe and on that you can make the double # F sound differerent than the G (a tiny bit lower than a G, maybe only 1 Hz difference?) as example, which fits the scale you work with better than a G.

That's interesting Peter - are you performing pieces that are supposed to be played in non-equal tempered scales? Or is this a technique used to "mix it up" so to speak so as to make it interesting for the audience / player to hear different scale tunings?

I'd think if you're playing in a group and they're not all versed in playing their instruments in say the "just" (or Pythagorean, 3:2 ... whatever you want to call it) tuning, you'll get a mess...

Originally Posted by PeterG

So, it may seem silly on a piano but it makes perfect sense on an oboe to write F## in stead of G.

Yeah, it seems silly at first, but once you understand the reasoning behind the use of double sharps and flats - Steve and Ron explained it quite well - it definitely makes sense.

Originally Posted by PeterG

I know this applies to other instruments too (a guitar can do a string bend to compensate I guess, a violin or any other one in the family of fressless types can do it too, trumpets too, trombones, flutes, many instruments come to think of it).

You're right ,pretty well any non-keyboard instrument (for which the equal tempered tuning was developed) can adjust their fine tuning on a note-by-note basis. Woodwinds typically are tuned to equal tempered scale, but can change fine tuning by adjusting their mouth pressure, partially covering open holes, etc. Brass pretty well need to do this constantly as three or four valves and their various combinations of lengthening tube just approximate the appropriate frequency - if you watch trumpet players, they're constantly having to adjust the slides off of the 1st and 3rd valves depending upon the combination of valves they're pressing.

Cheers, D