Steinke, Schenker, Rameau, Piston, help me decide...

[stevel]

Originally Posted by mducharme

personally. For tonal counterpoint I would suggest Kennan. .

I'll second the Kennan - forgot about that.

Steve

[stevel]

Do I really need to go through the Kostka/Payne book at this stage?.
I have done a search on the internet and it seems to cover similar ground to Piston.
Some of the comments on Amazon are a little negative concerning this work. Mostly because of the dry nature of it, so it seems. I have no problems with dry material so that would not be a problem. Furthermore, one should not take Amazon reviewers too seriously
Have you heard of mducharme's recommendation (Harder/Steinke)?

I recommend it because it has a workbook with Audio examples you can also buy, and the book has exercises within that can be checked in the back of the book.

I think most reviewers don't like it because they ended up failing a theory course and of course, they'll blame the book, and not themselves.

Piston's Counterpoint seems not right for now but I will not forget about its existence (later).

I think the problem with Piston's Counterpoint is it's not quite sure what it's supposed to be - Tonal? Modal? Species?

The Kennan is much better - sorry I forgot it before but since Piston wrote all of those, you usually have to mention them together :-).

Schoenberg is standing on the shelf. I have peaked in it a few times, again> later. Others I discuss below.

The Schoenberg is actually VERY good and his ideas are EXTREMELY well thought out and, from a composer's stnadpoint, very useful. He's looking at things in "this is how I think about and use them" versus many other texts that are "this is how we're going to teach you".

The biggest problem with the Schoenberg is that he is VERY wordy and goes into sometimes excruciating detail - I think he feels he needs to explain his reasoning all the time. It also might be part of the translation too, int that some concepts in German become more wordy in English. But still, once you get the ideas from a couple of other texts, it is a great resource.

I have never heard of Gauldin before. This approach looks very interesting and I'm definitely considering it.

I've only recently discovered him. He's a Princeton/Harvard etc. egghead type, but the information is right on - it's the most accurate I've found. However, the texts themselves are laden with typos which is unfortunate.

I like Palestrina's music and wouldn't mind more study of it, but isn't Fux's approach enough for now? And Jeppesen, possibly, at a later date?
Doesn't Jeppesen also use the Species approach?

Well, if you want to compose 16th century style, then Fux and Jeppesen are fine. But you said "for now", and since you mentioned "classical" music and not "early" music, Fux is a little too - "formal" I think. Many people dig on it, and that's OK, but I think people just don't want to dis it. Composers themselves didn't actually use Species approach, so, why should you?

Again, it has good points, but I think looking at counterpoint from a more "musical" perspective will prove to have merits as well!

Oh, an interesting Counterpoint study is one that's called something like "from Josquin to Stravinsky" - it's more of a historical overview and anthology, but it's kind of useful to see how basic concepts are tied together throughout various styles.

as far as Gauldin's 16th century counterpoint is concerned, I'll check it out based on my experience with his analysis of the 18th.

Think of the 16th c like Jeppesen, and the 18th c like Kennan.

One thing about most 16th c. counterpoint texts is that they delve heavily into the text setting and Latin (which is probably the real reason people prefer Fux - it's like 16th c. but without the words mucking things up!).

Clendenning/Marvin: Theory (musician's guide to theory and anlaysis IIRC)>> This looks interesting. Looks like another worthy book for self-study

This is an interesting one. They take a new and different approach than the K/P, Gauldin, Aldwell/Schacter and other "traditional" approaches. One or both of them are on the faculty with Gauldin, but the texts are entirely different (and this one is new and hip-looking, unlike Gauldin's which has some 60s artwork on the cover). They use an "overview" approach where instead of "here's scales" "now here's intervals" "now here's chords" and so on (yes, "hear are", not "here is", but there you go). Theirs is more like "here are notes, and here is how various people have treated them". It's interesting, but I don't know how "self-study" it is. But I find it far more "readable" than most.

Isn't one of these a better choice to have next to the Piston for now? Instead of the Kostka/Payne work? Or, should I, really get the Kostka/Payne work?
Thus, a self-study and formal approach vs two formal approaches.

Self Study. Hmm. Always concerns me. Music Theory. Kind of like "Is there a good self study text for Brain Surgery?" The thing about all of these is they all take a somewhat different approach. So while Piston may be formal, the K/P is laid out in an entirely different way (and DeVoto has actually revised the Piston to be more in line with the things like K/P and Aldwell/Schachter). Gauldin's approach is different again, and Schoenberg different yet. So I don't think you can do badly with any of them, and I NEVER recommend only a single text to anyone - no one to my knowledge as written the "perfect" music theory text yet - they all fall short in some way - so basically, what one lacks, you will find in another, and so on.

Honestly about Piston, I had searched for some of his music before starting the study of his Harmony Book ...Any recommendations?

YouTube - Three Pieces for Wind Trio by Piston...

Can't say much about the recording quality, but gives you an idea.

Both would be a little too expensive. They both cover the pre-modern notation too, right?

I'd get the Gardner Read. It's in print, and he does a historical overview. It needs revising or updating, but it's still very worthwhile as a reference. But you can look at actual music scores and see how editors/publishers/engravers did it and use their guidelines. There's also an online notation resource (though antiquated) at the Music Publishers Association web site:

http://mpa.org/music_notation/standard_practice.pdf

So I'd put this behind the orchestration books in priority :-)

Steve

[stevel]

My current guess is that tonal counterpoint differs from modal counterpoint in that it stands for a later period occurence of counterpoint where the emphasis was on the major &minor tonalities (17th & 18th century) as opposed to to the renaissance church tone modalities. It's the distinction between the two Gauldin books on Counterpoint right?

Right - some people say "16th" and "18th" century cp rather than "modal" and "tonal" but that's what they mean - basically "Palestrina style" and "Bach style" (terms that are also used).

There's actually a significant difference (why do you think we have these naming distinctions if there wasn't!) but it's a "devil in the details" kind of distinction.

Steve

[stevel]

I find both Kostka/Payne and Harder/Steinke much easier reads than the Piston.. Not necessarily because of Piston's writing, but because of the larger number of musical examples and visual aides made possible/easier by modern printing.

I usually say the Piston is an easier read - but I agree, in terms of "readability", Piston is less "dry" as Ignacy's Amazon reviewers noticed about K/P - but I also agree that the "modern-ness" of K/P is persuasive - in fact, that's one of the things I really like. In the latest editions they've highlighted the passages they're talking about - from that standpoint, it's the most "user-friendly" text I've found. However - to Ignacy - that doesn't necessarily mean it's any better for self study. But I think it would be "better" than other options in that same category.

Steve

[ttw]

Harder's books (2 volumes and an introductory volume) seems to be a pretty good self-study harmony book. He states some principles then has some quizzes with solutions later. The notation is reasonable and it covers CPP pretty well.

[mducharme]

Originally Posted by stevel

It's not "Master Theory" is it?

No.. I've never heard of such a book!

The Steinke/Harder text is called "Harmonic Materials in Tonal Music". It's published by Prentice Hall and it's a college-level text. It's value is mostly in how well it works for self-study. It's the only text at that level geared toward that approach. It's used in some A/P courses where the prof can be sure the students are going to figure stuff out on their own and so they can leave the students to learn the more basic stuff from the book and spend the class time working through the more advanced stuff.

[stevel]

Originally Posted by mducharme

No.. I've never heard of such a book!

The Steinke/Harder text is called "Harmonic Materials in Tonal Music". It's published by Prentice Hall and it's a college-level text. It's value is mostly in how well it works for self-study. It's the only text at that level geared toward that approach. It's used in some A/P courses where the prof can be sure the students are going to figure stuff out on their own and so they can leave the students to learn the more basic stuff from the book and spend the class time working through the more advanced stuff.

Interesting - I'll have to check it out.

Thanks!

Steve

[Ignacy]

I can't thank all of you enough for all the help!!

I've made my choice and will most probably be ordering the following at Amazon tonight:

- Kostka/Payne - Tonal Harmony: I've searched inside the book at amazon and the table of contents looks refreshingly different to Piston's Harmony.
I will however buy the 2003 edition in stead of the 2008 since I can get the former used and thus cheaper (Have never had exerience with buying second hand at Amazon, hope it will be a good experience).
I am however a little irritated as far as the Audio CD is concerned. It's expensive! What about the accompanying workbook? Amazon lists a 1984 date for it. Is this integrated in the latest Kostka/Payne?

-Steinke/Harder: The Table of Contents is similar to Piston's harmony. The fact that it was made for self-study will hopefully reinforce my knowledge (even more) of what I read in Piston.

-Gauldin's 18th Century Counterpoint. I would have gone with Kennan (the "it's more well known" argument (which isn't necessarily a good one)) if it weren't twice as expensive. But, this looks good too!

-Rameau: Treatise on Harmony, not expensive and good to have.

-Cecil Forsyth: Orchestration. I guess you all know this one. I heard it has a very in depth overview of the various orchestral instruments (not so much the mixing of instruments). Not expensive and interesting. It's much recommended everywhere.

-And of course the Bach Chorales (Riemenschneider Ed.)

I think this will be enough for the coming years. I won't be reading them all at the same time. Some (Rameau, Gauldin and the Schoenberg I already have) I'll put on a shelf and gradually peak more and more into, others I'll try to combine with Piston (Steinke & Payne).
I will have to dose this well otherwise it will be overkill. I also need to compose, create sounds (synthesis programming) and exhibit social behaviour

What do you think?

A big thank-you from Warsaw!!

PS: Stevel, do you recommend buying the Gardner notation book right now, or at a later date?

By the way:

Here's the: "From Josquin (de pres) to Stravinsky" book you referred to: http://www.amazon.com/Modal-Tonal-Co.../dp/0028721454 (expensive however, again...). I've put it on my wish list.
As for : Clendenning/Marvin: Theory>> this would be too much right now...

[stevel]

- Kostka/Payne - Tonal Harmony: I've searched inside the book at amazon and the table of contents looks refreshingly different to Piston's Harmony.
I will however buy the 2003 edition in stead of the 2008 since I can get the former used and thus cheaper (Have never had exerience with buying second hand at Amazon, hope it will be a good experience).
I am however a little irritated as far as the Audio CD is concerned. It's expensive! What about the accompanying workbook? Amazon lists a 1984 date for it. Is this integrated in the latest Kostka/Payne?

AFAIK, the workbook comes with the CDs for it, but the text's CD comes separate (and it might be a teaching aid and not aimed at student use).

Do you really need the workbook? The Text has the chapter quizzes and answers for that. The workbook actually has no answer key (it's sold separately to professors and probably only available from the publisher) so it's good practice, but I'd say you'd be in good shape with only the text.

You can actually check out the website too - a lot of these current texts have really nicely done web companions that can help explain things further.

One more nice thing about the K/P is so many people have it that when you ask questions in places like this, someone's bound to be familiar with it.

-Gauldin's 18th Century Counterpoint. I would have gone with Kennan (the "it's more well known" argument (which isn't necessarily a good one)) if it weren't twice as expensive. But, this looks good too!

Price was a winner for me on this one. It is really good though. Just be ware of the typos!

-Rameau: Treatise on Harmony, not expensive and good to have.

Agreed.

-Cecil Forsyth: Orchestration. I guess you all know this one. I heard it has a very in depth overview of the various orchestral instruments (not so much the mixing of instruments). Not expensive and interesting. It's much recommended everywhere.

I'd say it's "less academic" (whatever that means) but yes, most people also have this one. Price helps.

-And of course the Bach Chorales (Riemenschneider Ed.)

I hope you can play piano. If you can't it's a good way to start understanding "flow" just by plodding through them - and you'll find yourself getting better each day. If you can play, you'll find you'll soon start to intuit the moves, which makes comprehension of the theoretical concepts so much more useful.

What do you think?

I think you've made good choices. Unfortunately, you're setting yourself up for a lifelong compulsion of buying books and spending time figuring them out and composing!!!

PS: Stevel, do you recommend buying the Gardner notation book right now, or at a later date?

It's nice to have - but kind of like a Musical Dictionary - it's something that's good to have on the shelf as a reference but not something you'd "read" (just how you don't really read a dictionary) so I'd say it's not necessary, but it's nice to have. If you use a modern notation program like Sibelius or Finale, it will take care of most of the notation issues for you, so you'd only need it for the fairly obscure things.

By the way:

Here's the: "From Josquin (de pres) to Stravinsky" book you referred to: http://www.amazon.com/Modal-Tonal-Co.../dp/0028721454 (expensive however, again...). I've put it on my wish list.
As for : Clendenning/Marvin: Theory>> this would be too much right now...

I'm still waiting to see how the Clendenning/Marvin book catches on. I think ultimately it might be a little too "undirected" - that is, instructors teaching CPP harmony won't like it's forays into other systems, and instructors of other systems might find its focus on CPP harmony a little limiting. I think that would be overkill for you now, and it may not ever be necessary as anything more than a curiosity.

P.S. You can always feel free to ask questions here, I'll be happy to answer them and I'm sure others will chime in as well.

Best,
Steve

[mducharme]

All those choices are fine.

For the Harder/Steinke because it's in two separately purchased parts you can always buy part 1 first and part 2 later. Also I would recommend following only the Harder/Steinke rules and not rules you find in other textbooks when doing the Harder/Steinke exercises otherwise you will get different answers than the ones they list. If you follow the rules in that book to a tee and those only, if you do not get the same answers they do, you have made an error somewhere. Largely the rules in the Harder/Steinke are very close to Piston's "rules of thumb" that you already learned so this shouldn't be much of a problem.

As for the Forsyth's "Orchestration", only his sections in the Timpani and the Trumpet are completely out of date, the rest is pretty much the same as it is today.