Sight singing and Ear training

[Silverfin]

Originally Posted by cyrus

Thanks steve and silverfin.But something else....my counterpoint teacher is a great composer who has studied in UC (in South California)..He has this ability like my harmony teacher but more powerful...he claims and I am sure he is right that he hears multi-part partiturs that's like what we write as our harmony exercise a piece of music in four part.
I have worked on reading just one line and I have been successful to some extent but please guide me how hearing parallel melodies can be possible!!....you know...I was checking Berklee Workshop on Harmony Ear Training.There it was written that what I just said is possible if you have "VISUAL" image of notes!!!!!......What does is mean?....How hearing in this level can be gained?

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying here (in which case, let me know), but -

I don't really understand why you would think that hearing multiple melodies isn't possible. True, it's a pretty amazing thought that when the ear drum vibrates in a particular pattern, the brain is able to separate those tiny vibrations out into individual pitches and perceive them as harmony (or multiple melodies). But if one is capable of physically hearing multiple notes, one can then reproduce the same auditory effect in the memory or imagination ('mind's ear').

If you heard a melody with which you are familiar, but accompanied by different harmonies, you would know that it was different, wouldn't you? This can only happen by matching what you are hearing with the multi-part harmonies / countermelodies stored in your memory.

As for the visualisation bit, there are probably some advanced methods being taught, but many people find it helpful to picture what the notes of an interval would look like written down, or what they would look like on a piano keyboard. I have also heard of people using a kind of induced synesthesia and linking pitches or intervals with colours, but this is rather more unusual!

Silverfin

[JimmyJOL]

Hello Everyone:

Cyrus, I am a professional composer/arranger/orchestrator as well as a singer. I was not born with any special ability like perfect pitch but, over the years I have developed the ability to hear in the ways you've mentioned. It has proven tremendously useful in my professional life.

If I understand your main question it is what specific process can you use to achieve the hearing level you've described. I strongly believe this is possible because I have experienced it myself.

As the others posters have said, there are many different approaches to this and they all work to some degree if you practice diligently. IMO one of the best things about computers is that there are now many Ear Training programs which take you step-by-step through this process.

If you pick one or two of these and follow them for a certain amount of time every day, you will be able to achieve an extraordiary level musical hearing.

Here is a list of some of the programs avaiable:

Relative Pitch

http://www.discount.perfectpitch.com/relativepitch.htm

http://www.risingsoftware.com/

http://www.ars-nova.com/aboutpm5/index.html

http://flat5software.com/index.php

http://www.earmaster.com/


Free Ear Training software

http://www.miles.be/

http://www.solfege.org/


A list of other ear training software:

http://www.msu.edu/user/spangle9/etsoftware.html


The important thing is to consistently practice for an extended period in some organized progressive way. If you keep at it you will succeed. Good Luck

Be Well,

Jimmy

[cyrus]

Thanks steve,siverfin and JimmyJOL. You're right jimmy. I was looking for a method or any special guide to show me the path for finding this great ability because according to me, this ability is a great step forward in musicianship. I can't write my ideas everywhere because I can't distinguish their related notes also I solve my harmony exercises as a complete composition but I do not have any idea how it sounds. These softwares seem to be very helpful I will try them. Thanks All

[franz_luigi]

Hi Cyrus,

I'm not a professional, but am a pretty good sight-singer, so I just wanted to share my view on the fixed do/movable do method.

I began my music training at age 5 with a Yamaha school in Japan, and I was taught solfege with fixed do. I therefore find fixed do an easier method for hearing and reading music. I have perfect pitch, which I think is related to having been taught with fixed do, because when I hear pitches I hear them as their fixed do note names. I think it makes sight singing easier, I think, because you have a fixed point of reference. I find sight-singing with movable do more difficult, but that could just be that I wasn't taught it at a young age, and also due to the way I hear and recognize pitches (as fixed do solfege note names).

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here, but hope this helps in some way.

[Silverfin]

Originally Posted by franz_luigi

Hi Cyrus,

I'm not a professional, but am a pretty good sight-singer, so I just wanted to share my view on the fixed do/movable do method.

I began my music training at age 5 with a Yamaha school in Japan, and I was taught solfege with fixed do. I therefore find fixed do an easier method for hearing and reading music. I have perfect pitch, which I think is related to having been taught with fixed do, because when I hear pitches I hear them as their fixed do note names. I think it makes sight singing easier, I think, because you have a fixed point of reference. I find sight-singing with movable do more difficult, but that could just be that I wasn't taught it at a young age, and also due to the way I hear and recognize pitches (as fixed do solfege note names).

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here, but hope this helps in some way.

Perfect pitch most certainly makes sight-singing easier! The other week I was doing a choir thing with a friend who has PP (I most certainly don't). We were both totally unfamiliar with the music, which was part of the St Matthew Passion, so not the easiest (although at least it was tonal).

We decided that a good analogy for sight-singing was driving round an unfamiliar city. Having PP is like having GPS - something constantly telling you your exact location, whereas for the rest of us it's like looking at a map - having to keep finding where you are and calculating directions and distances.

Silverfin

[cyrus]

Originally Posted by franz_luigi

Hi Cyrus,

I'm not a professional, but am a pretty good sight-singer, so I just wanted to share my view on the fixed do/movable do method.

I began my music training at age 5 with a Yamaha school in Japan, and I was taught solfege with fixed do. I therefore find fixed do an easier method for hearing and reading music. I have perfect pitch, which I think is related to having been taught with fixed do, because when I hear pitches I hear them as their fixed do note names. I think it makes sight singing easier, I think, because you have a fixed point of reference. I find sight-singing with movable do more difficult, but that could just be that I wasn't taught it at a young age, and also due to the way I hear and recognize pitches (as fixed do solfege note names).
I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here, but hope this helps in some way.

Dear Franz,
Hi
Your opinion is always welcomed.Thanks for sharing your self-experience.
I think you can use PP for you learned it in childhood.I am 23.There is a question for me:
You go out of home for all day without any musical affair.When you come back home I put my finger on a piano key (Just one key not two keys).Can you distinguish for example it was Fa# or Re#?
Or after hearing for a while a piece of music in any special tonality, then you can distinguish single notes?
If your answer to my first question is + then thanks God that you have such great ability.
If your answer to my second question is + then I think you are using relative pitch like most of us.
I think those whose answer to my first question is positive have a GodSent ability and its not learnable although being taught in schools.
Would you please tell me a little of the method they worked with you.Perfect pitch seems very difficult to me although I have never worked on it.
Thanks anyhow
Best......Cyrus

[franz_luigi]

Hi Cyrus,

I do have perfect pitch. I recently took a test at the UCSF perfect pitch study website and was determined to have PP/AP.
http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/pptest_pre.php

I can't remember very well the exact method I was taught because I was 5 when I started piano lessons with Yamaha. I just remember that I have always been able to tell notes from one another. In music class at school, in the 1st or 2nd grade, our teacher would also test us on notes. He would play noes on the piano and we had to write down what they were. Until I was much older, just assumed it was normal to know what the notes were.

Because I hear notes as their fixed do solfege names, I think it has to do with having been taught music with fixed do. But I'm sure there must be people with PP who were taught with moveable do.

The only thing I can suggest is just practicing; maybe getting one of these tuners and carrying them around with you and constantly testing yourself. I believe you can train yourself to get close. Many string players can learn to pick out an "A" because they tune their instrument to "A" all the time, those who play instruments that tune to "B flat" can often pick out a "B flat", etc.

I suggest, if you have a piano, to start by training yourself recognize Middle "C". Just Middle "C" first. Over and over. Play Middle "C" on the piano every time you pass it, let the note sit in your head while you're doing other things. And next time you pass the piano, play it again. (Just make sure your piano is in tune.) I don't know if this will help you develop PP, but it may at least help you develop it on a subconscious level, which can't hurt. You could do it with a tuner that you carry in your pocket, those would be more accurate because they're electronic and don't need tuning.

Or practice on the Ear Training sites Jimmy recommended. I think the key is practicing. You don't have to have PP to be a good musician; just developing your relative pitch as well as you can will help with sight singing.

Hope this helps.

Good luck.
Aubrey

[stevel]

I do have perfect pitch.

And I hate you :-)

I recently took a test at the UCSF perfect pitch study website and was determined to have PP/AP.
http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/pptest_pre.php

I tried this. After the 1st 10 notes I was just random guessing. I gave up.

Until I was much older, just assumed it was normal to know what the notes were.

And I hate you again :-)

Because I hear notes as their fixed do solfege names, I think it has to do with having been taught music with fixed do. But I'm sure there must be people with PP who were taught with moveable do.

Yes, I think so. The study at the AP test site shows it's got to do with "musical training" and not so much the type of note-naming system you use. Interestingly, speakers of Tonal languages (which this test does not seem to consider) have more general AP present.

The only thing I can suggest is just practicing; maybe getting one of these tuners and carrying them around with you and constantly testing yourself. I believe you can train yourself to get close.

Well, I might disagree with you here - I don't think one should try to train themselves to get close to AP - good RELATIVE pitch is very useful though. I know it's hard for you AP possessors to understand, but the rest of us aren't so concerned about finding out what a particular pitch is in isolation, but how pitches interact in a musical context (I know you're not concerned about that either, you just have the ability to do it naturally).

Many string players can learn to pick out an "A" because they tune their instrument to "A" all the time, those who play instruments that tune to "B flat" can often pick out a "B flat", etc.

Yes - I play guitar and can restring it and without a reference pitch tune it pretty much dead on - it just "sounds right" once I get there. Weird, huh?

Or practice on the Ear Training sites Jimmy recommended. I think the key is practicing. You don't have to have PP to be a good musician; just developing your relative pitch as well as you can will help with sight singing.

Yes - good point.

The most interesting thing I found on that site was that as people age, their PP goes "off".

Heh, heh, heh. Revenge at last :-)

Steve

[franz_luigi]

Interestingly, speakers of Tonal languages (which this test does not seem to consider) have more general AP present.

I do actually speak a tonal language; my first language was Mandarin Chinese. I did a research proposal for linguistics class in college wherein I hypothesized that singers would have an easier time learning tonal languages. That was before I had heard of this study where they think that more tonal language speakers tend to have AP. I have several cousins (from Taiwan/Mandarin speaking) who also began musical training at an early age, and they also have PP. I think we have 4 or 5 out of 13 total cousins on my mother's side who have AP. So, perhaps they do have something there.

The most interesting thing I found on that site was that as people age, their PP goes "off".

Heh, heh, heh. Revenge at last :-)

Steve

Heh, heh, heh. We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? I'll let you know in about 40-50 years.

Cheers,
Aubrey

[Silverfin]

Interesting that nobody so far has mentioned the negative aspects of having absolute/perfect pitch.