Sight singing and Ear training

[cyrus]

Hi all,
I have a harmony teacher,and he is realy a master sight singer.He puts his finger in a note on piano then shows another note with his finger (some interval before or after) and signs it and so on.The important part is that he says he has not learned intervals.For example he has not learned that the fifth sounds like this and...
He says notes have ATTRACTION to each other and it's the secret and learning the intervals is not the right method for sight singing.
Can any1 help me what he does and what the actual name of this method is?
I am a young composer,melodies come to my mind,but without an instrument I can't write the correct notes.
What should I do for sight singing?
Thanks all

[stevel]

Originally Posted by cyrus

Hi all,
I have a harmony teacher,and he is realy a master sight singer.He puts his finger in a note on piano then shows another note with his finger (some interval before or after) and signs it and so on.The important part is that he says he has not learned intervals.For example he has not learned that the fifth sounds like this and...
He says notes have ATTRACTION to each other and it's the secret and learning the intervals is not the right method for sight singing.
Can any1 help me what he does and what the actual name of this method is?
I am a young composer,melodies come to my mind,but without an instrument I can't write the correct notes.
What should I do for sight singing?
Thanks all

Hi Cyrus. I'm a college instructor and I've actually taught ET/SS. I even took it as an undergraduate.

When I was taking it, I didn't really get it - I didn't see the point. Our instructor taught us things like, to sing a Tritone, you sing "Ma-ria" form West Side Story.

Later, after I was out of college, and before grad school, I came to realize that I could use the ideas I was taught, in actual music (it was so abstract in class). What I learned was, I was most likely to encounter a tritone as the 7th note of a scale jumping up to the 4th note. This was a revelation!

The problem in school was, they were teaching me to sing intervals from Do to X. A Major 6th is Do to La. But you're far more likely to encounter it from So up to Do (as in "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean").

So what happened was, I began to think of intervals not from Do to X, but from X to Y - where X was some note in the key, and Y was another note in the key, neither of them necessarily Do. Then, I could go back to sing single notes in relation to the KEY, not the NOTE Do. Like now I know what Le in a key sounds like. I can "hear" it in my head.

Side note here, Europeans use Fixed Do (Do is always C) as do some American schools, but for this method we use Movable Do (the Tonic of the Key is always Do). Id idn't realize it until later, but the point of using movable Do is so you're thinking in terms of KEY, rather than INTERVAL.

I bet this is what your instructor is doing (either that, or they have perfect pitch, really good relative pitch, or have memorized a lot of intervals).

So I agree that Learning by Interval is not the correct method.

I don't know if "attraction" is the best word - sounds kind of "mystical" as if one has to attain some heightened state to achieve it.

Sing from the Tonic to every other note in the key. Sing from the supertonic (scale degree 2) to every other note in the key. DO this for all notes.

Then go back and do minor.

Then go back and do them all. This will cover all notes except b2 and #4. b2 is not too hard to find, and #4 is the leading tone to the dominant.

So I would say, if I had to explain it, if I want to sing C to F#, I do one of two things:

1. If I know the key is C already, I sing C, then I find G as being the 5th of a C scale, and then sing F# as if it is the leading tone to the key of G (so I'm thinkg Ti-Do even though I'm singing Fi-So).

2. If I don't know the key, I figure that C and F# come from the key of G, and they are scale degrees 4 and 7, and work from G to get there.

When you get used to this, you can do modes as well. For example, I kind of know where b7 is, but I tend to think of it as a 7th chord, or "I7" like in a blues tune, rather than the lowered 7th from minor or something.

So in other words, it think it's far more useful to treat things in reference to KEY, rather than INTERVAL (until you're dealing with highly chromatic music, then you just have to be damn good!).

HTH,
Steve

[cyrus]

Thanks Stevel.I understand what you mean.But imagine I wanna sighn Fa# from Do.OK.After Do I think of Sol (It's kind of leading tone for Do for Si is hidden in Sol fromphysical point of view) anfter thinking of Sol I sighn Fa#.But how I should remember Sol after Do.
Do you mean for example in Do major scale I must remember Do,Me and SOl then I sign other notes in relation to them?
I dont know if I can mention what I mean but thanks however for your complete answer to my post.
Best Wishes
Cyrus

[stevel]

Originally Posted by cyrus

Thanks Stevel.I understand what you mean.But imagine I wanna sighn Fa# from Do.OK.After Do I think of Sol (It's kind of leading tone for Do for Si is hidden in Sol fromphysical point of view) anfter thinking of Sol I sighn Fa#.But how I should remember Sol after Do.
Do you mean for example in Do major scale I must remember Do,Me and SOl then I sign other notes in relation to them?
I dont know if I can mention what I mean but thanks however for your complete answer to my post.
Best Wishes
Cyrus

Cyrus,

Usually, in movable Do, the syllables are:

Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do.

minor is
Do Re me Fa So le te Do.

We say "re", and any other one that ends with an e the same way - like "way". re, me, le, te, etc.

We've also removed the l from Sol to make them all two letters, so, "So" (rhymes with Do).

Ti sounds in English like the letter "C", so Ti and Mi are the same.

Do and So rhyme because they are the "guideposts" of the key.
Syllables with an "ee" sound like Mi and Ti are "leading tones" to the note above. Therefore, if we raise a note a half step, it keeps the initial consonant, and takes an i for the "ee" sound:

Do di Re ri Mi Fa fi So si La li (te) Ti Do.

Fi So, or Di Re, or Si La, should all sound like Ti Do in their respective keys.

When we lower something chormatically, it takes on the "way" sound of Le and Te in minor, so we get (descending):

Do Ti te La le So se Fa fe Me Re - but since Re already has an "ay" sound, lowered 2 is "Ra" (rhymes with La and FA).

F# - C is Fi to Do, but, it's also Ti - Fa in G major. So sing, Do-Ti-La-So-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do - then Do-Ti-La-So-Fa-So-La-Ti-La-So-Fa-So-La-Ti - and by that time, you should have the boundaries of Ti-Fa in your head, and can sing just those two notes.

Another way is Do-So-Fi-So and then leave out the So.

But I'd never think of F# as Fi, and try to get to C as Do from there - the two notes are either what they are in the key, or, the first note I take as Do and make the alteration where necessary. But trying to sing "from C" - the letter C - and take F# as Fi (or even Fa#) is far more difficult in my opinion.

Best,
Steve

[cyrus]

Thanks steve. I think alot of what you say and try to understand it fully.Your comments are so helpful.Thank you

[Silverfin]

Originally Posted by stevel

Side note here, Europeans use Fixed Do (Do is always C) as do some American schools, but for this method we use Movable Do (the Tonic of the Key is always Do). Id idn't realize it until later, but the point of using movable Do is so you're thinking in terms of KEY, rather than INTERVAL.

Steve

This is incorrect. In the UK, do is simply the tonic of whatever key you are in. Linking solfege to absolute pitches (i.e. do = C) is a French tradition, I think. Not sure about other countries.

Silverfin

[stevel]

Originally Posted by Silverfin

This is incorrect. In the UK, do is simply the tonic of whatever key you are in. Linking solfege to absolute pitches (i.e. do = C) is a French tradition, I think. Not sure about other countries.

Silverfin

You don't have fixed Do in the UK?

In the US, we have both Fixed Do, and Movable Do, however, in the study of Tonal Music, Movable Do is far more common to use. However, there are those for whom English is a second language, or who came from Europe (continental Europe) in whose original language C is "Do" or even "Ut", and who use and teach Fixed Do because they can't separate (or don't want to) The word "Do" from the pitch "C". As a Grad student, a colleague of mine from Russia who had only spent his teens in the US learned Fixed Do, and that's what he taught his students here in the US.

Steve

[cyrus]

Thanks steve and silverfin.But something else....my counterpoint teacher is a great composer who has studied in UC (in South California)..He has this ability like my harmony teacher but more powerful...he claims and I am sure he is right that he hears multi-part partiturs that's like what we write as our harmony exercise a piece of music in four part.
I have worked on reading just one line and I have been successful to some extent but please guide me how hearing parallel melodies can be possible!!....you know...I was checking Berklee Workshop on Harmony Ear Training.There it was written that what I just said is possible if you have "VISUAL" image of notes!!!!!......What does is mean?....How hearing in this level can be gained?

[stevel]

Originally Posted by cyrus

Thanks steve and silverfin.But something else....my counterpoint teacher is a great composer who has studied in UC (in South California)..He has this ability like my harmony teacher but more powerful...he claims and I am sure he is right that he hears multi-part partiturs that's like what we write as our harmony exercise a piece of music in four part.
I have worked on reading just one line and I have been successful to some extent but please guide me how hearing parallel melodies can be possible!!....you know...I was checking Berklee Workshop on Harmony Ear Training.There it was written that what I just said is possible if you have "VISUAL" image of notes!!!!!......What does is mean?....How hearing in this level can be gained?

I think the best way to hear things like this is to approach it on two levels:

1. The linear aspects (individual melodies)

2. The vertical aspects (the chords or simultaneities)

For example, let's say you give me:

B C
F E

I hear both the B-C and F-E lines (as Ti-Do and Fa-Mi) and the "chord" of the Tritone to the m6. But again, interestingly, I don't think of these "chords" as those intervals, but those sounds within a C major context - in other words, I more hear E and C as being the 3rd and Octave of a C chord, rather than a minor 3rd interval.

One thing that really helped me with chords Cyrus was to play a chord and then pick out the Root, Third, Fifth, and even 7th, etc. Then, I would play the Root and Fifth, and sing the Third and so on. Another similar exercise is to take a major triad and add a minor 7th or major 7th to it (making it a Major 7th chord or Dominant 7th chord for example).

The other obvious thing to do is play through a bunch of things. If you don't already have the Reimenschneider edition of the Bach Chorales, you should get it. Play through them at the keyboard. It doesn't matter how long it takes you. If if takes you an entire hour, or even day to get through the first chorale, don't worry. Keep doing a little each day and you'll find you'll start to intuit what's happening and learn to read and play better (if you don't already, but for the benefit of any other readers of this post).

Then you can start to follow individual lines, and then sing some line while playing the other three. Then you'll find you start hearing harmonic moves intuitively.

A word of caution - when you play, you also need to be thinking about what it is you're playing. For example, when I play a Bach Chorale, I'll often play one pass where I think about what each chord is and if there are any modulations. On another pass I might follow the melody line and note what scale degrees it has and what type of cadence each phrase ends with. And so on. Too many times musicians simply read through the music without paying attention to anything but trying to play it. They concentrate so hard on that that they can't concentrate on anything else. But once you can play through them fairly competently (doesn't have to be concert level or anything) you can start to pay attention to these finer details and that will really help (it really helped me for sure).

Best,
Steve

[Silverfin]

Originally Posted by stevel

You don't have fixed Do in the UK?

In the US, we have both Fixed Do, and Movable Do, however, in the study of Tonal Music, Movable Do is far more common to use. However, there are those for whom English is a second language, or who came from Europe (continental Europe) in whose original language C is "Do" or even "Ut", and who use and teach Fixed Do because they can't separate (or don't want to) The word "Do" from the pitch "C". As a Grad student, a colleague of mine from Russia who had only spent his teens in the US learned Fixed Do, and that's what he taught his students here in the US.

Well, I have never formally studied singing, so there may well be a school of singing teachers who do this. However, I do have a degree in music and I've never yet come across anyone who uses fixed do.

In fact, IIRR solfege wasn't really used at all. On my analysis and harmony courses we just tended to say 4th, flattened 6th, etc. to indicate a degree of the scale.(Yes, I'm aware these terms could easily be confused with the interval 4th etc. but it's generally clear from context what is meant!) Or sometimes tonic, mediant, etc. (and yes, these could be confused with talking about keys...)