my 28th..

[PeterG]

Greetings everyone,

There I am again with a piece for solo piano. It's written in C minor and more or less in a single day to capture a particular mood.

As usual I'd appreciate all feedback / comments / tips to improve or enhance on form, sound, well, everything actually.

Right now it does not have a title and I'd like to know your first thought after hearing it so that I can give it an appropriate title (I have my thoughts on it but do not want to, uhm, spoil the innocent reaction to it).

Here are the soundclick links:
lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6268758&q=lo
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6268758&q=hi

and attached is a pdf with the notes.

A final note on the sound; an aiff file was made with Finale 2008 with nothing special to it and then imported into Garageband for adding some reverb (Warm Classical master-track setting with a little extra reverb to the instrument track), then saved as m4a and converted to mp3 (who knows what I've lost in the process.....)

Let me know your thoughts please?

Thanks for listening,

Peter

P.S. not a happy tune I'd say

[stevel]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Greetings everyone,

There I am again with a piece for solo piano. It's written in C minor and more or less in a single day to capture a particular mood.

As usual I'd appreciate all feedback / comments / tips to improve or enhance on form, sound, well, everything actually.

Right now it does not have a title and I'd like to know your first thought after hearing it so that I can give it an appropriate title (I have my thoughts on it but do not want to, uhm, spoil the innocent reaction to it).

Here are the soundclick links:
lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6268758&q=lo
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6268758&q=hi

and attached is a pdf with the notes.

A final note on the sound; an aiff file was made with Finale 2008 with nothing special to it and then imported into Garageband for adding some reverb (Warm Classical master-track setting with a little extra reverb to the instrument track), then saved as m4a and converted to mp3 (who knows what I've lost in the process.....)

Let me know your thoughts please?

Thanks for listening,

Peter

P.S. not a happy tune I'd say

Not happy, but very beautiful and moody. Wonderful. I know I've made comments, which you've seemed to welcome on your previous pieces, so I'll toss a few out here:

1. I think your style, and your consistency, and you ability to structure a piece of music are steadily improving.

2. We've discussed the "openness" and "plaintiveness" of the perfect 5ths and other open 8ves and even 4ths - I think this is the exact kind of context in which their "bareness" can really contribute to the piece.

3. I LOVE this idea of "reaching up" (maybe there's a title in there) in your head motive - C - Eb, then C-G, then C-Bb then later (starting m. 19) C-F, then C-Ab then C-C. Now all you need is C-D and you've got the whole scale :-). Seriously though, I think it adds a "searching" quality to it.

It might be interesting to see if you can incorporate a similar idea in the inner part motive beginning m. 64 - G-F-G in 16ths, then it goes up to Ab. What about reaching up to other notes there?

Enough praise, now for some criticism :-)

1. The passages around m. 42 have this interesting quality where the high C in the RH jumps out at you. It changes to other notes with the harmony but I wanted to offer - wouldn't it be kind of cool it that high note in each measure played its own countermelody? Moved around a little more?? Especially when you get to m. 48 when the high note (G) starts to occur more than twice per measure and in different positions! Looks like a great place to add a little extra melodic interest and provide "something more" than the main melody just having moved to the LH (which is OK too).

2. The one major griping point I might bring up is that you tend to be really locked into the barline. For example, everytime you start a new idea, like in m. 30, m. 56, m. 69, etc. they always begin at the downbeat. It's kind of like "now here's a dyad jumping to a low note", "now here's 16ths in the RH", "now here's a rolled chord", etc. It would be nice if you had transitions between material. Now, all material doesn't need to be transitioned into and out of, sometimes a direct approach is better, but transitions can "smooth over" or "round out" what can otherwise be a "4 square" piece - especially if you have 4 or 8 measure phrases/sections, etc.

You have a nice transition in m. 41 with the 8th notes that lead into 42. If were to guess based on the other sections, I would say that "normally" you would have picked just another dyad jump down pair like in the first part of the measure. So this works nice. So same with the 16ths when they occur - it would be nice for use to have a "lead in" or something.

Now I will say at 69, m 68 does provide a nice lead up because of its expectation-building nature, so it works OK. But had those rests not been there (good use of silence by the way Peter!) you would end up with another "non-transition".

So you may have decided you didn't want any transition in the other places, but again, it's something I think that's worth thinking about everytime you move from one section to the next (or even one phrase to the next): "do I need a direct, or "integrated" transition here.

Very nice work Peter. Enjoyed it. Despite it's sad quality, I think it's uplifting.

By the way, when I can't think of, or don't want a title, I'll often put the date: 02.16.08 (order may vary in Europe :-). I know it's a little sterile but sometimes I don't want the listener to go in with any preconceived notion.

Best,
Steve

[PeterG]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for the review and the time listening and commenting.

Originally Posted by stevel

3. I LOVE this idea of "reaching up" (maybe there's a title in there) in your head motive - C - Eb, then C-G, then C-Bb then later (starting m. 19) C-F, then C-Ab then C-C. Now all you need is C-D and you've got the whole scale

. Actually you've got a very good point here; I never tried to build it up from C-D to C-F to C-Ab (with C -- Eb - F in the left hand), and after reading this particular point I played it and loved it. I'm going to find a nice place for it because it belongs in here too ! This particular version of the motive is not gaining strength at all but in fact declines and asks for a diminuendo or something.

Originally Posted by stevel

Enough praise, now for some criticism :-)

Criticism is good (and I do love it I learn so much from it), but praise is also good!.... continue with the praise please...... ;-)

Originally Posted by stevel

The passages around m. 42 have this interesting quality where the high C in the RH jumps out at you. It changes to other notes with the harmony but I wanted to offer - wouldn't it be kind of cool it that high note in each measure played its own countermelody? Moved around a little more?? Especially when you get to m. 48 when the high note (G) starts to occur more than twice per measure and in different positions! Looks like a great place to add a little extra melodic interest and provide "something more" than the main melody just having moved to the LH (which is OK too).

So you didn't spot the melody in the right hand in m.48 - 55 that is in fact he same one as the left hand had in m.42 - 47? Ok, I added a whole bunch of high G's and added some freedom towards the end to make it sound better, but in essence I copied the melody to the right hand and then added high notes on every point in between. May be I should mark them in the score as it was meant to bring out this melody too (Finale obviously didn't do a good job)

Originally Posted by stevel

The one major griping point I might bring up is that you tend to be really locked into the barline. For example, everytime you start a new idea, like in m. 30, m. 56, m. 69, etc. they always begin at the downbeat. It's kind of like "now here's a dyad jumping to a low note", "now here's 16ths in the RH", "now here's a rolled chord", etc. It would be nice if you had transitions between material. Now, all material doesn't need to be transitioned into and out of, sometimes a direct approach is better, but transitions can "smooth over" or "round out" what can otherwise be a "4 square" piece - especially if you have 4 or 8 measure phrases/sections, etc.
You have a nice transition in m. 41 with the 8th notes that lead into 42. If were to guess based on the other sections, I would say that "normally" you would have picked just another dyad jump down pair like in the first part of the measure. So this works nice. So same with the 16ths when they occur - it would be nice for use to have a "lead in" or something.
Now I will say at 69, m 68 does provide a nice lead up because of its expectation-building nature, so it works OK. But had those rests not been there (good use of silence by the way Peter!) you would end up with another "non-transition".
So you may have decided you didn't want any transition in the other places, but again, it's something I think that's worth thinking about everytime you move from one section to the next (or even one phrase to the next): "do I need a direct, or "integrated" transition here.

Well, i have been giving more attention to the transitions in this piece, but will give it another go to see if I can improve some more (I won't touch the m.41-42 and m.68-69; Iloved those already and "refuse" to change them). On m.29-30 I added the fermata for transitional reasons. m.30 - 35 is in fact the intro to the next, related, theme which is only 6 bars long (my attempt to a transition) and it continues to be in a 6 bars structure in stead of the 8 bar structure of the beginning, but by the time I got to m.48 I wanted to combine both melodies and have to fudge / fiddle a bit to fit it into 8 bars in stead of 6. These 8 bars the n introduce the next part which is again in the main theme structure.
In short; I did think about it, but perhaps need to re-think again on some points...?

Originally Posted by stevel

Very nice work Peter. Enjoyed it. Despite it's sad quality, I think it's uplifting.

Thank you Steve and whoa, uplifting even. When I started it I was convinced this was something of a funural march, but I guess my need for settling uneasy feelings is bigger than me...

Originally Posted by stevel

By the way, when I can't think of, or don't want a title, I'll often put the date: 02.16.08 (order may vary in Europe :-). I know it's a little sterile but sometimes I don't want the listener to go in with any preconceived notion.

Interesting, I think exactly the oppposite normally. I have a strong need to name a tune to ensure the player (and the listener as a result) has more or less the same mindset as I had writing it. some pieces I made turned out to have a quite other effect on people than i had in mind writing them, but then again you guys are not biased with my feelings and intentions when you first hear it. When I hear it inside my head all the extra stuff is also there and can't be shut off so easily.


Which is why I want to know what impression it makes on you listeners (and in this case THEN give it a name that fits).
Any more views on how to name this one? Anyone ?

Again, Thank you Steve !

Peter

P.S. not hard to guess where this one came from eh?

[PeterG]

Ok, here's a new version.

28 revised version
lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6287878&q=lo
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6287878&q=hi

I changed the last part of the tune, got rid of the "repeat" and entered the other version of the theme (C-D C-F etc) to lead up to the end.

I did not change much on the transitions discussed earlier. I tried to find better ways but just wasn't happy enough with them to get into this version.

I also used the slurs in m.48-56 to show the underlying melody a bit.

I'm still looking for a fitting name....... Suggestion PLEASE ?


Thanks already,

Peter

P.S. does anyone know how to make Finale play a roll upside down (from high to low) ??

[stevel]

I did not change much on the transitions discussed earlier. I tried to find better ways but just wasn't happy enough with them to get into this version.

Yeah, I know how that can be. Really you've got a couple direct, and a couple lead ins, so there's a nice balance. Something to keep in mind for the future though.

I also used the slurs in m.48-56 to show the underlying melody a bit.

I think my problem with hearing it is that the main interest is in the LH, and the highest note of the pattern tends to stick out, rather than "inner" part. But you know what Peter, sometimes musical material doesn't have to be obvious - you can use something to build something else out of, without it even being noticeable - it's like, "your little secret".

I hear a couple of little changes which to me, enhance the piece by adding some more flavors to it.

I'm still looking for a fitting name....... Suggestion PLEASE ?

As I said, I found it very uplifting.

One thing I do want to mention - again, it's one of those things that's not right or wrong, but something to consider, either now or in the future: in m.33 on the last beat you add a low F to your dyad. You've go this really nice inner part following the bass line in 10ths (starting m. 32 and before). That F on beat 4 tends to "take away" from that inner line. Now, if the inner line is supposed to be G - Ab-F rather than G - Ab - I would down stem that low F to make it clear.

I think this is again one of those cases of - is that doubling really necessary? Does it add to the line, or detract from it. I think it detracts from the Ab, but again, if you it's part of your melodic outline, it tends to get absorbed (in a sense meaning the F weakens the Ab, and is weak itself). Downstemming it will at least tell the player that it's part of the line, and not the chord if that's what you want.

Nice Peter,
Steve

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by stevel

One thing I do want to mention - again, it's one of those things that's not right or wrong, but something to consider, either now or in the future: in m.33 on the last beat you add a low F to your dyad. You've go this really nice inner part following the bass line in 10ths (starting m. 32 and before). That F on beat 4 tends to "take away" from that inner line. Now, if the inner line is supposed to be G - Ab-F rather than G - Ab - I would down stem that low F to make it clear.

I think this is again one of those cases of - is that doubling really necessary? Does it add to the line, or detract from it. I think it detracts from the Ab, but again, if you it's part of your melodic outline, it tends to get absorbed (in a sense meaning the F weakens the Ab, and is weak itself). Downstemming it will at least tell the player that it's part of the line, and not the chord if that's what you want.

Nice Peter,
Steve

Well Steve, this F was added on purpose as part of a small melody Ab - F - D leading to the B and to round off and contrast with the rising bass line. I'm not sure exactly what you meant with downstemming, but I'll add a little mark on the score to make sure the player knows this one is important.


Did you like the new ending with the theme starting at C-D , C-F etc? When I tried it after your initial suggestion (see below) I had this "oh yeah, that must be in like this" . I only had to write it down and then decide where to fit it.


On the name; I guess is to me it's, uhm, sort of, making piece with a sad situation and finding hope for the future in it somewhere. This is probably also why you find it uplifting and why I initially was convinced (not anymore though, even before your initial remark that it's uplifting) it's a funural march; this is after all the starting point of the process to make piece. But how to capture that in a 1 or 2 words title / headline? A simple "making piece" ?

Thank you as always Steve (and thanks for the kid words. I'm flattered with it as I'm a mere novice and amateur).

Oh, anyone else; feel free to comment at will. I value and learn from all opinions and love this forum for it.

Kind regards,

Peter

P.S. I'm happy to tell you my playing skills are now such that I can play upto the 8th's with enough dept to make it sound good.... I'm practicing on the the next part but forget the 16th's... that will take me a whole bunch of lessons more....

[stevel]

Well Steve, this F was added on purpose as part of a small melody Ab - F - D leading to the B and to round off and contrast with the rising bass line. I'm not sure exactly what you meant with downstemming, but I'll add a little mark on the score to make sure the player knows this one is important.

Put the upper two notes with their stem going up, and the lower note with it's stem going down:

d
p

You may have to enter this in Finale in Layer 2 (which is a PITA) but that's the correct way to do it.

Did you like the new ending with the theme starting at C-D , C-F etc? When I tried it after your initial suggestion (see below) I had this "oh yeah, that must be in like this" . I only had to write it down and then decide where to fit it.

I think it encapsulates the earlier ideas nicely - it's kind of like, earlier in the piece "it seems like he's doing something with this" and then when you get to the end, it's like "oh yeah, he was doing something with this".

it's a funural march;

I don't really get "march" out of it though. Maybe you mean more like "dirge".

I think you mean "peace", make peace.


How about simply, "Peace". It will have special meaning to you, and others will notice the play on words with "Piece", but realize there's something deeper going on there.

God bless you.

P.S. I'm happy to tell you my playing skills are now such that I can play upto the 8th's with enough dept to make it sound good.... I'm practicing on the the next part but forget the 16th's... that will take me a whole bunch of lessons more....

Keep on practicing! It WILL get easier!!!!

Best,
Steve

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by stevel

I think you mean "peace", make peace.

Indeed, sorry for the bad spelling.

[stevel]

Originally Posted by PeterG

P.S. does anyone know how to make Finale play a roll upside down (from high to low) ??

I know I responded to this Peter, but I don't see it. So here again:

You can make Finale do a downward roll by going into the Articulation settings (double click the roll's handle on screen, and then in the articulation selection window that comes up, make sure that one is selected and then choose the edit button - that will take you to the correct place) and in the playback portion, swap the offset values.

If you do this though, it will do it for ALL of the rolls.

If you want to create a new one (in case you have some normal ones as well for instance) you can choose the articulation, and then choose "Duplicate" and it will make you a new, identical one, which you can then set the playback offset values for.

You need to remember which one is which of course.

Really, when you do a downward roll, you're supposed to put a little arrowhead in the bottom of the roll symbol (and no text is normally added)

Finale does let you design arrow-headed lines, but I think it's a pretty involved process (it's not listed under rolled chords in the manual - it's in with the Articulation Designer and Slur Designer sections). It would probably be easier to use a bold V or a staccatissimo wedge and just move it into position where you want it with the text tool or the dynamic tool.

HTH,
Steve