A march full of triplets

[PeterG]

Hello everyone,


As usual I'd like some comments on this new tune for piano solo. It's a march but the score is full of triplets.

I'll be honest, I forgot to have a look at structures, logic and common do's/don'ts, s it may be full of these obvious errors.

All comments are welcome as usual and will have an impact on the end result.

soundclick link: A minor victory March
lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6463441&q=lo
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6463441&q=hi


Thanks in advance for listening, reviewing and commenting !

Peter

P.S. upload errors AGAIN when uploading the pdf with the score. If you want to see it email me, give me directions to a good sharing website for these kind of things, or get someone to help solve this....

[stevel]

Originally Posted by PeterG

Hello everyone,


As usual I'd like some comments on this new tune for piano solo.

Hi Peter.

Good Lord Man - get your left hand out of the depths! It's very funny Peter, so many works I hear have the left hand going down to the low A, and always doubling the bass part in octaves. The RH on the other hand (pun intended) rarely gets above the Treble Clef! You know, just because the bass can play low, doesn't mean it has to play low!

This is especially noticeable in a lot of the chords you have. Bring em up for air every once in a while!

I really like the opening (except for the too low chords that are muddying things up). Keep the low A, but don't double it an octave down! I will say, the F chord where the bass motion stops really bothers me - it's like the army suddenly stopped marching (and later, it sounds like the people in the back didn't notice and ran into the people in the front like in some comedy movie). I don't think you want that kind of "halt" to the motion at this point. The two chords that follow where the notes are legato is a nice contrast to the staccato A, so maybe the F should have two bass notes legato (F and F, or F and another pitch, that creates a little line to the next two chords - F-C-E-D-a-a-a-a makes a nice line).

Your B section is also very nice, but again, those accompaniment chords seem a little too low (or some of them do).

At around 1:05 you start this nice little "high" (thank goodness) section that flows VERY nicely out of the previous section. It seems to me that the interest moves to the LH chordal part. I might consider making the RH "less important" and putting it into merely an accompanimental role (rather than so much as a call and response).

At 1:23 it all falls apart.

I want to say, that this first part has easily the best transitions from section to section that I've heard you do.

But now you're back to "hmmm, here's another section, let me cram it into the middle of this other piece it has nothing to do with, and gee, how do I get from one section to this one, I know, I'll just do some solo melody line or something".

I being overly harsh but the first part was so good, this really seems weak in comparison. Now the music is not bad. It's just that these two sections don't go together. Or maybe you're thinking of a "movie march" where there's always some march-like intro, then it goes into the love theme, and then back to the march a la Star Wars. I think that's fine when it's a "Main Title Theme", but as a "March" for Piano Solo, I don't think it works very well. It's like the B section of Fur Elise - everyone wants to get back to "the good part" (which in that case is the section they know).

In other words, it's good music, but I think it really steals the thunder of the first part, and is counterproductive if anything.

Now, I will say the transition back into the main march theme is VERY effective. Good Job! It seems like you're paying more attention to how you get from one section (both in small and large sections) to another.

I just wish your "sad theme" middle part was as interesting/good/well-thought-out/appropriate etc. as the outer march sections.

Now, here's a question: Why on earth did you put the C in the bass at the beginning of the March this time? It's actually quite cool, as is the flurry that keeps the "halt" on the F from sounding too bad (but I still think this could be improved). But why don't you go ahead and introduce them earlier - like the first time through. Otherwise it sounds a little stilted. It's almost a little too "hey, I'm worried about an exact repeat, so I"m going to vary it here".

When this starts to transition into something new, the transistion is nice. However, I might consider just using quarter notes (or whatever the original march value A notes are) instead of 8th notes at 3:11 - then the 8ths at 3:14 (when they start to move melodically rather than as repeated notes) will have more impact (and the repeated notes won't be so muddy - of course, if you get rid of the lower octave, well, I think I said that before).

Actually, this triplet arpeggio pattern might lead (with a gradual decelerando) nicely into the first "sad theme" section (the one I think doesn't belong in this piece, but at least by bringing it in better it might work better).

Now, the piece ends at 3:30.

And yet, you keep going. Everything doesn't have to be Beethoven Peter, and doesn't have to have a Coda (and did I mention low chords and doubled LH bass notes :-).

Now, again, it's not bad ideas. It just doesn't work here, even though you took your chord progression from the B section (Am-G-F-E) and used it with march pattern from the A section (repeated A bass notes).

Here's what I think - get rid of your middle section, and get rid of this coda. Use this Coda, which you transition nicely into, as the B section in place of what you have! This is a great Development Section - but you put it at the end instead of the middle where it goes!!! The repeated A that recalls the beginning (but only two of them) at 3:39 is brilliant. You've combined that with other melodic ideas from the opening. It works beautifully.

So you need to have a B section that leads nicely into this Coda, which then leads nicely into a return of the A section march. Then, this coda, as is, will make much more sense. In other words you'll have:

A - ( your current coda, which transistions back to...
A - your current coda, which ends this time.

So the "coda" (or an expanded version thereof) is the B section. Does that make sense?

Best,
Steve

[PeterG]

Ok before I answer you Steve, here's a link to the score for those interested.

http://www.mediamax.com/pmmg1966/Hos...tory-March.pdf

More comments are of course still very welcome.

thanks in advance for listening, looking at the score and commenting / letting me learn...

Peter

[PeterG]

Hi Steve,
It's been some days before my reply but I've been giving the piece a thorough makeover based on your comments.

Originally Posted by stevel

Hi Peter.
Good Lord Man - get your left hand out of the depths!

Well, I did, but to be honest: I miss them. I like the sound of those low basses, especially on a grand piano. They give it some darkness and, uhm, well, "danger" withoug getting muddy (no more chords, just octaves)

Originally Posted by stevel

I will say, the F chord where the bass motion stops really bothers me - it's like the army suddenly stopped marching (and later, it sounds like the people in the back didn't notice and ran into the people in the front like in some comedy movie).

I agree to the effect you describe and at first that was the intention , but on second thought I didn't like it that much anymore. So, I have put a C on the second beat, but no staccato notes in this measure (for contrast)

Originally Posted by stevel

I want to say, that this first part has easily the best transitions from section to section that I've heard you do.
But now you're back to "hmmm, here's another section, let me cram it into the middle of this other piece it has nothing to do with, and gee, how do I get from one section to this one, I know, I'll just do some solo melody line or something".
I being overly harsh but the first part was so good, this really seems weak in comparison. Now the music is not bad. It's just that these two sections don't go together. Or maybe you're thinking of a "movie march" where there's always some march-like intro, then it goes into the love theme, and then back to the march a la Star Wars. I think that's fine when it's a "Main Title Theme", but as a "March" for Piano Solo, I don't think it works very well. It's like the B section of Fur Elise - everyone wants to get back to "the good part" (which in that case is the section they know).
In other words, it's good music, but I think it really steals the thunder of the first part, and is counterproductive if anything.
Now, I will say the transition back into the main march theme is VERY effective. Good Job! It seems like you're paying more attention to how you get from one section (both in small and large sections) to another.

I just wish your "sad theme" middle part was as interesting/good/well-thought-out/appropriate etc. as the outer march sections.

I'm thinking of changing the title to just "A minor Victory". The story behind it is something like the return of an army after a victory. But the victory is not so, uhm, victorious in every way. The sad middle part is the part I'd like to stop and think of the casualties; an essential part of the process in my view. Which is why I can't let go of it now.
The whole piece is written with the idea in mind that the victory comes at a high price and in fact is not a happy occasion (hence the minor key). And it drags on even when you want it over (hence the long coda's). I guess the inspiration is not hard to guess anymore...

Now, on the technical part; I've been changing the change-over to the slower part a lot. I'm sending this out to see now as I'm not 100% sure about it but get stuck in repeating ideas to improve. I've taken some measures to get there and ended up with a fermata to separate the rhythms.

Originally Posted by stevel

Now, here's a question: Why on earth did you put the C in the bass at the beginning of the March this time? It's actually quite cool, as is the flurry that keeps the "halt" on the F from sounding too bad (but I still think this could be improved). But why don't you go ahead and introduce them earlier - like the first time through.

Well, the honest answer is that when I got to the second version of the theme I introduced the short bass beat (it wasn't there in the opening at first; the first version was unisono playing the right hand theme in both hands) and the C's as well. Then I liked that version more and brought the short basses to the opening, but sort of forgot to introduce the C's and never noticed when playing it. They are in now...

Originally Posted by stevel

When this starts to transition into something new, the transistion is nice. However, I might consider just using quarter notes (or whatever the original march value A notes are) instead of 8th notes at 3:11 - then the 8ths at 3:14 (when they start to move melodically rather than as repeated notes) will have more impact

Good one ! done..

Originally Posted by stevel

Now, the piece ends at 3:30.
And yet, you keep going. Everything doesn't have to be Beethoven Peter, and doesn't have to have a Coda (and did I mention low chords and doubled LH bass notes :-).
Now, again, it's not bad ideas. It just doesn't work here, even though you took your chord progression from the B section (Am-G-F-E) and used it with march pattern from the A section (repeated A bass notes).

See above. In fact the piece is a bit extented even. But I will be honest; there is a change-over I don't like that much and been struggling with. It's a round 4:48. I wonder if you feel it's inappropriate here?

I've attached a link to a midi this time so and not a full finale steinway version. That will come later on soundclick.
http://www.mediamax.com/pmmg1966/Hos...h-makeover.mid

Already thank you for the efforts listening and commenting!

kind regards,

Peter

[PeterG]

Hello all,

Even though it's been quiet on your side with respect to this tune I've been fiddling it as it didn't seem quite right with respect to the structure of it.
I've replaced the original version with a new one on soundclick and moved the original one (from post #1) to another place.

The original version: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6522957&q=hi

The new version: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getpl...d=6463441&q=hi

This new version has the original transition to the slower part (I liked it) and I've added a "brother" for this part; further down the tune there's another arpeggiated (but not slower) part on a place that seemed logic compared to the opening. This way it doesn't feel out of place (as it never did to me).

Here's a link to the score. It's a bit printed outside the range but you'll get the idea from it..

http://www.mediamax.com/pmmg1966/Hosted/30-A%20minor%20Victory.pdf

So what do you think?

Kind regards and thanks in advance for listening / reading,

Peter